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Recount?

by: Jack McCullough

Wed Aug 25, 2010 at 08:10:47 AM EDT


As close as the election is, we can be pretty sure that  the margin will be within the range in which a losing candidate can request a recount.

 Here's what Vermont law says:

§ 2601. Recounts

If the difference between the number of votes cast for a winning candidate and the number of votes cast for a losing candidate is less than five percent of the total votes cast for all the candidates for an office, divided by the number of persons to be elected, that losing candidate shall have the right to have the votes for that office recounted.

 The procedure involves a filing in the Washington Superior Court, where all the ballots are transported and counted by hand.

The conventional wisdom is that a recount would be a disaster for us because "we learned from the Salmon recount in 2006 that a recount takes two weeks".

I think the conventional wisdom is half right and half wrong.

I agree that it would be bad to have a recount. The people who do the recount are people who work in the party and who could, in the absence of a recount, be doing other campaign work. In addition, it does seriously deflate the lift that the winner should come out of the primary with.

I do not think it should take two weeks, though. In 2006 the recount was for a general election for Auditor of Accounts. There were just over 250,000 ballots recounted. This year it's a primary, and we're probably in the neighborhood of 65-70,000 votes, which should take approximately a third as much time as the Salmon recount consumed.

I don't have any inside information that you don't at this point, but keep in mind that the people you're hearing on the radio and TV also probably don't.

Jack McCullough :: Recount?
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Raise Your Voice!

Recount? | 30 comments
So here's my question (4.00 / 1)
is this the case with primaries or specific to general elections?  It's my understanding that the individual parties have a little more control about how their nominations are settled.  Not that I suggest the party jump in here, 'cause I think that would be a disaster.  I'm just trying to understand the law.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

I'm pretty sure the same rules apply to primary and general elections. n.t. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
No particular party role (4.00 / 2)
Unless all the candidates decline the nomination (not likely!) the Party has essentially no role, other than providing the bodies for the recount teams.

We might be able to intervene in the court proceedings and make some requests, but it is the Washington County courts that run the process for a statewide recount.  If the numbers end up in the legal 2% range (very likely) but with enough difference that a recount is very unlikely to change the result, some persuasion might be applied to discourage a request for a recount.  The true swing possible in a recount runs well less than 1%. I have observed tabulation math errors rather than counting errors as the predominant factor in changing the numbers.


[ Parent ]
Except a tie (4.00 / 1)
As noted below.  If lightning strikes, and it actually ties, it would go to the State Committtee to resolve.  Almost certain that a recount would be requested first.

[ Parent ]
I'm sure you're right (0.00 / 0)
But we already have a State Committee meeting scheduled, so I'd just as soon see it go that way. Maybe.

[ Parent ]
an odd thing about primary ties & recounts (4.00 / 1)
When the thought arose within my mind a while back about any potential for a tie in the Dem Guv primary and, more importantly, what would occur in the very unlikely chance one were to happen: I asked Kathy DeWolfe at the SoS about it via e-mail since the wording of the primary tie language implies a tie would go to the party's state committee; and, although I directly asked whether a candidate could still request a recount, she did not directly answer the question and instead mentioned I had quoted the correct statutory language addressing primary ties. Thus one wonders if, as written, if a tie occurs, strangely enough a recount would be ruled out. Does not seem logical, yet that is the way the language reads and, since according to Chris Graff this morning on WCAX, there has never been a tie in a statewide primary, then there is no precedent for dealing with it. What a mess, huh?!

Morgan W. Brown

Montpelier, Vermont


[ Parent ]
I can see that. (4.00 / 1)
The person who is entitled to request a recount is the losing candidate. I suppose under one interpretation, if there is a tie there is no losing candidate.

On the other hand, I don't think "losing candidate" is defined. It could be argued that if you finished in a tie you didn't win. If you didn't win that makes you the losing candidate, right? Maybe both tied candidates could file for a recount.


[ Parent ]
The 3rd place candidate... (0.00 / 0)
...could request the recount if there's a tie between the top two.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

[ Parent ]
fly in the ointment ... (4.00 / 1)
if however, there is a third candidate who is not one of those tied and yet close enough to request a recount, then they certainly could request a recount: i.e., in this particular instance, if she either is or does manage to pull close enough, Deb Markowitz.

Morgan W. Brown

Montpelier, Vermont


[ Parent ]
another hypothetical fly ... (0.00 / 0)
is one not mentioned in this discussion is that an actual tie could be between more than two candidates, ...

Morgan W. Brown

Montpelier, Vermont


[ Parent ]
opps, ... (0.00 / 0)
sorry Julie, am real tired from being up all night and your comment subject header did not register (i.e., I missed it). duh!

Morgan W. Brown

Montpelier, Vermont


[ Parent ]
No problem (0.00 / 0)
we're all probably a little out of it today :)

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

[ Parent ]
Third place (0.00 / 0)
Looks at this point like the 3rd place candidate will also be in the legal recount window.

I'm becoming resigned the the near certainty of a recount.

It would be good if the official results (Friday in most if not all counties) widened things up a bit.  Hopefully towns will be double-checking their math.

The canvass committees may have a more significant role to play than usual, I'll have to see how much authority they can exercise to verify results from individual town clerks.  One flipped cell on a spreadsheet could change the whole picture.


[ Parent ]
At this point, 4th place candidate (0.00 / 0)
Appears to be in the window for recount. This is the most amazing election result I've ever seen!  

And I LOVE the high turnout among Democratic voters - a primary really can improve participation.

Beware the Everyday Brutality of the Averted Gaze


[ Parent ]
recount? (4.00 / 2)
If the recount takes, let's say, 5 days, wouldn't it be worth it to eliminate any "cloud" that the winner might be under?  Given how close this is, it might be good for us all to know who really won, right?  Also, the primary used to be in mid-September, right?  So, even if there is a recount, it will all be decided long before then.

I'm just thinking this through....


Absolutely! (4.00 / 2)
I'm actually one of those thinking a recount would be a good thing.  Since all our candidates have demonstrated throughout this long primary that they can be polite adults about the whole thing, I certainly hope they could do so during a few days of a recount.

And like you say, we need to have a decisive moment, and a clear victor -- even if it didn't come on election night.

We also really could use a different voting system, but that's a long-term consideration that these results have simply highlighted.


[ Parent ]
On the plus side (4.00 / 1)
VT does not do machine recounts.

A simplified description of the process:  the recounts are done by hand in teams of 4, with 1 pair on each team representing the candidate who called for the recount and 1 pair representing the candidate who had the highest # of votes. Small groups of ballots are counted by each team, and each pair on the team makes a tally for each group of ballots. If the two pairs' tallies for a given batch disagree, they re-recount that batch. It's a painstaking process, but after having participated in one a few years back, I have no doubt that recount results are completely accurate.  

Beware the Everyday Brutality of the Averted Gaze


[ Parent ]
as I understand it, ... (4.00 / 3)
the party only has a role if there is an actual tie during a given primary and the remedy provided under Vermont election law for an actual primary tie is as follows (here):

§ 2369. Determining winner; tie votes
Persons who receive a plurality of all the votes cast by a party in a primary shall be candidates of that party for the office designated on the ballot. If two or more candidates of the same party are tied for the same office, the choice among those tied shall be determined:

(1) Upon five days' notice and not later than 10 days following the primary election, the state committee of a party, for a state or congressional office; the senatorial district committee for state senate; the county committee for county office; or the representative district committee for a representative to the general assembly shall meet to nominate a candidate from among the tied candidates. (Amended 2010, No. 73 § 1.)

(2) The committee chair shall certify the candidate nomination for the general election to the secretary of state within 48 hours of the nomination. (Added 1977, No. 269 (Adj. Sess.), § 1; amended 2010, No. 73 § 1.)



Morgan W. Brown

Montpelier, Vermont


Recount Procedure (0.00 / 0)
Jack et al,

Would the procedure for starting a recount in Wash. County Superior Court have to wait for the Sec. of State to release a certfied primary result?  If so, how long will it take for certified numbers to be available to the SoS?  Is there any realistic scenario under which the entire recount procedure could be completed by Friday September 3?


Hard to be sure, but that seems unlikely (4.00 / 1)
According to the statute the losing candidate has ten days from the election to request a recount.

County canvassing boards are going to meet on Friday to certify the results of the election. (At least that's when we're meeting in Washington County.)

It seems unlikely that any candidate would file a request for a recount before then, but I certainly don't know that.

The Superior Court (now the Civil Division of the Superior Court) is required to set "an early date" for the recount, giving all parties five days' notice. I think that means we're most likely after Labor Day before the counting starts.


A recount would be a tremendous help to the Dems ... (3.50 / 2)
1) It will keep the Democratic gubernatorial wannabe names and personalities front and center without the need to purchase advertising.

2) It will force Dubie into spending large amounts of cash early to keep his "personality" up front and center.

3) It will assure that many more people will be watching the process early on.

4) It will keep the excitement level up for the Democratic base and those leaning that way.

There are no downsides to a recount in this particular instance.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


Wouldn't a recount hurt? (0.00 / 0)
I'm not so sure a recount would benefit the Democrats, but I'd be naive to think Racine/Markowitz wouldn't demand one. Maybe it won't be a huge blow to the party's nominee in the general election, but I certainly don't want to be watching Dubie on election night, wishing my candidate had an extra week of campaigning put in.

The way for it to not be a huge blow to Shumlin would be... (4.00 / 1)
...for Shumlin himself to suggest it as necessary first.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

[ Parent ]
Yeah, but... (0.00 / 0)
That makes too much sense/would be too classy a move to happen.

[ Parent ]
Yeah, but... (0.00 / 0)
That makes too much sense/would be too classy a move to happen.

[ Parent ]
Cost Benefit of recount (3.00 / 2)
A recount that lasts up to 3 weeks is a benefit to Dems: keeps their name in the story without having to put any money into ads.  

Once you get past 3 weeks or so, it starts to become old news and fade off the circuit.  So if we can see a recount that lasts under 3 weeks, that's excellent.  Otherwise it could start to become a problem.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer


And On A Purely Practical Note... (3.00 / 2)
...what with late-summer vacations, kids back to school earlier this year, and the usual where-did-the-summer go frantic activity, I doubt any "serious" campaigning would get much thoughtful attention right now.  A little recount drama keeps the Dems front & center, and when it's over, people will be ready to settle down for some intense campaigning.

[ Parent ]
Looking Forward (0.00 / 0)
OK... If the Shumlin win stands (and I do think a recount would hurt the Dems) here is how I see the general:

Governor: Shumlin (very very close) over Dubie
LT Gov: Scott over Howard (as Scott will take away some of the working class vote)
Sec of State: Condos over Gibbs
Auditor: Hoffer (who will have the Dem and Prog nomination) over Tom
Congress: Welch (by landslide) over Paul

In Washington County, the VT Senators will be Cummings, Pollina, and Doyle. This will give the Progs (through Anthony) a much bigger statewide platform.

All told I see the statewide general election results bring Vermont slightly more to the left.

Who is the king-maker? The TEAMSTERS (with their 1000 members) will have direct access to Shumlin (the new Governor?) for the next 10 years. It was their support that made the difference.

On the flip side, this will may make for strained relations between the rest of labor (with 30,000 members) with the Teamsters (as the Teamsters, if they stayed with Racine, could have locked it up for Doug).

 


I don't think a recount would hurt at all (3.00 / 1)
One of the hallmarks of this group of candidates is that they've all behaved like adults, keeping it respectful. I think they can certainly continue that for another week or two.

If any of the candidates within the 5% window specified by VT election law were to call for a recount, I think it would be just fine. If none were to do so, that would be fine, too.

Beware the Everyday Brutality of the Averted Gaze


[ Parent ]
Recount? | 30 comments

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