VLOG: Mark Johnson Promotes Vermont Tiger into Stratosphere- Are Right-WIng Blogs Now on Top?

BFD.... (3.00 / 1)

C'mon, is there really that much to be worried about? Basically, all they are is much more well-funded than we are. What the scenario really is is now there's a right-wing blog in VT (that still touts a minority viewpoint) that actually involves people who know about policy, and (for now) isn't just a mindless repetition of the right-wing noise machine. So now media will finally have someone besides John McLaughry to talk to. And it gives us more stuff to pick at, because I'm sure there'll be much to disagree with on there philosophically, if not factually. Bring it on, I say. You need to try to get on "Wait Wait Don't Tell Me" see if you can win and then get Karl Kassel to do your next vlog post.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. But why would you do something silly like that?

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by: JDRyan @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 07:17:29 AM CST

I agree.... (3.00 / 1)

...I'd love to get Karl's voice on my answering machine.

-In America the people fear their government; in France, it is the government that fears the people

www.integralpsychosis.com

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by: wdh3 @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 08:16:10 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This is really great... (3.00 / 1)

Your comments, too... But, more importantly the video... I think it helps to make things a bit less anonymous which I thinks helps with the site's overall credibility. I vote for more video commentary. Nice job. Glad you had the nerve to post it.

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by: Vermonter @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 14:25:14 PM CST

I keep wanting to get a video camera thingy... (3.00 / 1)

...but every time I talk about it, I get dirty looks, 'cause I'm no good at keeping things organized :)

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 15:09:30 PM CST

With comments like "camera thingy"... (4.00 / 1)

you will continue to fall behind the rest of the tech world, just as described in the video above. I agree that the only way to keep up with VT Tiger is to put together a GMD symposium. mydog is correct that it's a ton of work, but it will all be worth it. If GMD doesn't try to counter the VTT symposium, I don't want to hear any complaining about it.

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by: grumpyvermonter @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 15:21:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Are you joking? (0.00 / 0)

I'm really no clear whether you are or not.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 15:39:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh, and... (3.00 / 1)

...I referred to "camera thingy" ironically. :)

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 15:40:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A couple of thoughts (3.00 / 3)

First, John, I love the vlog thing. It was a fun change of pace. You should do it more often. I just came back from the VT Tiger symposium and I think you are kind of off base about what Vermont Tiger is and what the symposium was. To compare GMD and VT is really to compare apples to oranges. They are not a political blog with the kind of mission that you guys have. The symposium brought together economists and business people to talk about solutions for the future of Vermont's economy. Not all of the panelists were singing from the same page, either. For example, Bill Schubart stated that universal health care is inevitable. Basically, that it is the only way we will contain costs. Does that sound like something, say, Art Woolf would say? I think that Mark Johnson was right to bring attention to this event, as it was a big deal in terms of the national speakers and the bringing together business people in the state to talk about solutions absent a political agenda, ie. a candidate they are trying to get elected. Besides, he moderated one of the two panel discussions, so why wouldn't he talk about it on the air? Vermont Tiger is not, in my understanding, trying to further a political agenda, per se, so I do not think they are the rival that you seem to think they are. Of course, I do not speak for them, nor do I have any kind of insider information as to their election-time plans.

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by: shesright @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 17:23:39 PM CST

Sorry for the one big paragraph (3.00 / 1)

For some reason, it lost all formatting. (It was there in the preview)

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by: shesright @ Fri Nov 30, 2007 at 17:25:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Nicely done. (1.00 / 1)

John, very nice analysis of the state of blogging in Vermont. Geoff Norman and Jack Harding correctly recognized what the symposium would do to our blog exposure. But just as you're watching us, we're watching you. We haven't done the You Tube thing yet. While some of our people are perhaps more plugged in to power, as you say, your people are younger and undoubtedly more tech savy. But we will learn from you folks. I notice from the comments that the You Tube thing is called vlogging? Cool.

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by: hierc @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 07:07:05 AM CST

thanks (3.00 / 1)

It's funny, though. I wasn't trying to do anything more than get caught up with what I wanted to write about. It really was about laziness (although it was fun, so I'm sure I'll do it again).

Hope the symposium went well (but not too well ;) )

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 08:42:37 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Oh and also... (1.00 / 1)

GMD is way better than Baruth's blog. Two-thirds of his stuff isn't even about Vermont. VDB is not aptly named. I certainly don't think he should be the blogosphere's only representative on "Vermont This Week."

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by: hierc @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 12:26:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

He's the respectable one (1.00 / 1)

We're all too scary over here. Horrible scars, oozing, veiny. And we drool a lot.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 15:52:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Heh. (3.00 / 1)

Yep. Heh.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. But why would you do something silly like that?

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by: JDRyan @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 21:39:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

symposium thoughts (3.75 / 4)

Nate: "The symposium looks like a legitimate and past due discussion about ways we can improve our economy." "Past due"? These guys (most of them anyway) have been talking about this for years, and state policy generally reflects their positions. The only thing that's past due is an organized response to the dominant view (which is basically trickle down). Indeed, I would argue that all of their efforts are intended to push back against a growing sense that the status quo has failed and that it's time to examine alternative approaches. So rather than having initiated a discussion, I think they are reacting to the threat posed by those of us asking hard questions about current policies. Nate: "When it comes to conversations about financial infrastructure here in Vermont, too often I find non-entrepreneurial lefties responding by tuning out. Captive insurance? Don't know about it; don't want to know about it." I agree. However, sometimes there is less there than you think. For example, captive insurance may be a boon to Fortune 500 companies (and brings in tax revenue), but as a jobs engine it's tiny. Notwithstanding efforts to exaggerate its impact, the whole "industry" accounts for about 200 direct jobs. Shesright: "To compare GMD and VT is really to compare apples to oranges. They are not a political blog with the kind of mission that you guys have." Vermont Tiger's goal is to influence public policy. How is that not political? Shesright: "I think that Mark Johnson was right to bring attention to this event, as it was a big deal in terms of the national speakers and the bringing together business people in the state to talk about solutions absent a political agenda, ie. a candidate they are trying to get elected." As a forum for ideas, it would have been more interesting if a broader range of perspectives was represented. I did not attend but I'm very familiar with Art Woolf's work and checked out Audretsch & Shlaes. This is not exactly the full spectrum of ideas on economic development. Bill Shubart is a thoughtful guy, but in this group he appears to be the token outsider. And while they may not be advocating for a particular candidate, that is not the only measure of a "political agenda".

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 09:37:41 AM CST

So... (3.50 / 2)

...you're signed up to present at the GMD symposium, then (heh)?

On another note, I dont know what's up with the formatting of posts. It only seems to work if you put in HTML tags. There are spaces between my paragraphs because I put in line break tags. I'll look into it.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 09:52:57 AM CST

[ Parent ]

re. formatting (3.00 / 1)

If it helps to know, I copied it from Word into the box (and it had paragraph breaks).

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 11:00:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'll second the motion (1.00 / 1)

Doug for Exec Dir of the GMP Symposium?  Those in favor say, "Aye."

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 11:51:13 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Dominant views... (4.00 / 1)

You got me on the Captive Insurance example in terms of job creation, but I was thinking more about the extraorinary expertise Vermont can benefit from as the national leader in this industry.  For example, the captive insurance model is policy makers should be proposing and implementing in order to achieve universal health care.  For those who are unaware of what "captive" insurance, it's a really simple concept:  the entity who needs the insurance creates and owns their own private insurance company, thus lowering costs and increasing control.  In that case, it wouldn't be a trickle down effect, but a direct benefit to everyone (except BCBS and MVP).

But when it comes to banking, investment banking, and venture capital, these are also areas which "alternative" companies can benefit from.  I'll add ESOPs and other employee ownership models to the mix, as these are also underutilized, even by the kinds of companies we want to love for their social values.  I guess my overall point is, based on my own anecdotal experience in finance, that the level of interest in learning about financial infrastructure, tools and concepts seems to be a lower priority for many on the left, and so we remain behind the times in utilizing the primary instruments of economic development when it comes to growing and promoting the kinds of business we would like to see here.

In another string there was also a reference to the kinds of strategies Jeb Spaulding is using in his position as governor.  I think it's really great, and I actually heard him describing it to a colleague at teh 2005 Curtis Awards.  It is a concept CALPERS (the California pension fund) has been using for  decades.  Every step forward we make in our understanding and use of financial tools is great.  I just think we can do better.

Nate  

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 12:13:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Solutions? (3.50 / 2)

The main speaker at the symposium was P.J. O'Rourke. Below is a recent post from P.J. that references that the Ayn Rand Institute (http://kazooobjectivist.blogspot.com/2007/11/if-you-think-health-care-is-expensive.html). Their take on health care is revealing. P.J.: More and more people are starting to understand what socialized medicine would mean if Hillary and her ilk get their way. Paul Hsieh has a good article at http://www.aynrand.org/ where he describes what the Canadian health care system really is like and how people are starting to understand that they commited a big mistake by allowing the government to control their healthcare dollars. Hsieh: "To guarantee "free" health care, a government must force the individual to pay for everyone else's medical care and limit his freedom to pay voluntarily for his own. With bureaucrats deciding who receives what, the individual is therefore forbidden from spending his money according to his own rational judgment (and the advice of his doctors) as to what's best for his health. When a government forces people to act against their own interests, it's no surprise that the results are misery and death." Nice. Characterizing the Canadian health care system as resulting in "misery and death" is a great way to encourage an open debate about solving problems. Note to P.J. -- health care spending as a % of GDP: Canada 9.8%; U.S. 16% life expectancy: Canada 80.3; U.S. 77.9 infant mortality / 1,000 births: Canada 4.6; U.S. 6.9 Sources: Commonwealth Fund and the Centers for Disease Control (as cited in that radical publication Business Week, Nov. 12, 2007)

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 12:21:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Main Speaker? (3.00 / 1)

PJ O'Rourke was not the "main speaker." This is the problem with commenting about something that you did not attend.

PJ O'Rourke gave the closing address, which was entirely humor.

I have a lot more to say about what really happened at the symposium, but I will save it for my own blog.

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by: shesright @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 14:49:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

y'gotta admit (3.00 / 1)

...he was the marquis speaker, at any rate.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 15:47:47 PM CST

[ Parent ]

er... "marquee" (3.00 / 1)

I really should proofread. I didn't mean to suggest he was nobility.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 15:49:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

the state of nature (3.67 / 3)

I have already acknowledged that I didn't attend. However, that does not in any way change the truth about Mr. O'Rourke's published views. It is irrelevant where he was in the program (or whether he told jokes). I offered a post of his from three weeks ago that quoted with approval a man who said the Canadian health care system has resulted in "misery and death". Please tell me why I should take this guy seriously? In a post on your blog you said the following: "I just don't understand why anyone thinks that it is someone else's responsibility to pay for health care and not the individual's." Do you understand the principle of a shared risk pool? I've paid over $50,000 for health insurance over the last 15 years and have probably gotten no more than $1,000 in actual health care. During that time, others who buy insurance from the same company have benefitted from my payments into the system. That is, I helped pay for their health care. And some day, they may help pay for mine (or not, I could drop dead tomorrow and NEVER get another dollar back). If I understand you, that is somehow inappropriate. Do you think private insurance is wrong? Do you think Medicare (gov't. insurance) is wrong? Do you think a child should go without necessary health care because his/her parents can't afford it? We do not live in a state of nature. We live in a community. That means we have accepted some responsibility for each other. It's called the social contract.

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 19:39:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And so it begins... (1.00 / 1)

Now the Rutland Herald is in on the conspiracy to boost Vermont Tiger. Link

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by: shesright @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 16:13:48 PM CST

"Conspiracy?" (3.00 / 1)

Reading a bit much in, eh?

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 16:16:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

VTiger=extinction (3.50 / 2)

The VTiger is just the extinct catamount, and that is what would happen to Vermont if their ideas get implemented. So, how come every right-wing organization is labeled in the media as a non-partisan non profit, meanwhile a left wing organization is always referred to as an an advocacy group with left wing ties. Anyway, I suggest anyone who supports these ideas to fly to the Silicon Valley and see how every vacant land has been developed to house the dot.com'ers. Property values have increased to exorbitant rates and meanwhile those who had lived there were forced out of their homes because they could not afford to live there any longer. Traffic and congestion is appalling, and the streets are checkered with strip malls. So if that is what they want then then they can go there. I moved to Vermont because it is not the Silicon Valley, Connecticut, or New Jersey. Vermont has not been overly corrupted by the corporate hegemony that has destroyed the American landscape and family.

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by: RobbKidd @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 17:32:49 PM CST

Wish some of you were there. (3.67 / 3)

Doug and others. I am sorry you were not at the symposium because you might have found it interesting. I was one of the panelists and Art Woolf and I had a healthy point counter point going (actually I had a healthy point counter point going with a number of folks in the room). As a representative of Vermont's only venture capital firm I think things are quite a bit rosier than Art does and I am happy to give my viewpoint. The day was reasonably balanced actually although you would not know it from the Free Press and the Herald. The Times Argus had a few paragraphs at the end about our portfolio company Brighter Planet and its recent deal with Bank of America. b/t/w Brighter Planet was founded by a couple of Middlebury College students and it is one of many successful young up and coming green companies in the state. Who says all the young Vermonters are leaving the state eh?. I gave examples of several other successful ventures at the Symposium. On a separate note I do not think your figures of 200 jobs for the captive insurance industry is correct anymore, Doug. I think that the job count is quite a bit higher than that. In addition, my estimate is that approximately half of Vermont's captive insurance companies keep fairly healthy deposits with Vermont banks. As you economists know, bank deposits are the fuel for bank lending, and an extra say $100 million of bank deposits is not a bad thing. Shesstillright has a good account of the morning's activities. Not sure what my comment signature will be so I will sign off in the body of this comment. Regards, Cairn Cross

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 21:21:16 PM CST

At $75 a pop? (3.00 / 1)

No freakin' way. Not part of that socio-economic target audience. Wish I were. Call me when there's a sliding scale.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 22:16:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Hmm... (3.00 / 1)

Maybe you should have inquired about a media pass. I don't know what would have happened, but the Vermont Tiger website did say it welcomed media inquiries (if memory serves).

I don't think waiting around for a call is the way to produce the influential blog you are hoping to have. (And I don't mean that to be as snarky as it could be read.)

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by: shesright @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 07:55:28 AM CST

[ Parent ]

$50 a pop for Dem events (3.00 / 1)

$75 wouldn't be so bad; $50 more doable.  Considering the educational opportunity, I'd say I'd rather put my money in this type of event than yet another Dem fundraiser.

Nate

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 15:03:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I couldn't afford the Autumn Harvest thing either. n/t (0.00 / 0)

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 15:04:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

VBSR/green company sponsorship? (0.00 / 0)

I hear ya.  Maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of an entrepreneurial focus, and maybe that's not the direction that  it would need to go.  But if it is, then $50 to $75 shouldn't be unreasonable, and event organizers wouldn't have to throw in the cash anyway.  

Another thought is to convince VBSR to help sponsor the event, along with NRG, etc, etc.  Or perhaps team up with another event not to be named in this forum.

The people that this kind of event would be targeted to would be folks who own a business or are stepping forward with a start up.  If those people can't come up with $75 for an education opportunity, then they're not yet successful enough to participate.  It's kind of a bar you gotta be able to rise to anyway, since it costs $75 to just get a company name registered as an LLC or corporation in the first place.

You know, there wouldn't be a need for such a symposium if we could convince legislature that some of these questions about Vermont's economic future need to be addressed in the form of task force.

I heard on the MJ show the other day that such a committee is proposing a $5 billion investment toward reducing our carbon footprint.  I'm all for reducing our carbon footprint, but I think at least $4 billion ought to be dedicated to new technology/business enterprise in order to achieve that goal, instead of preaching the ways of Luddites.  I think I may have mentioned this somewhere else in this diary, so I apologize for redundancy.  But I think we can move things forward economically and environmentally at the same time.

Nate

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 16:41:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

An event to consider (0.00 / 0)

Anyone interested in entrepreneurial training should come down to Middlebury on December 8th (this coming Saturday) for the Middlebury Solutions Group end of semester workshop.  See the details here: http://www.digitalbridges20.ne...  It's FREE and you get breakfast, lunch and a cocktail reception, plus you watch 4 Vermont companies pitch their business plan and three workshops geared toward young companies in the afternoon.  By the way Midd College does this each semester and they put on a great web conference each January.  

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 18:32:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

sweet! (0.00 / 0)

nice to know.  No need to reinvent the wheel then, eh?

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 18:47:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

While I am at it (4.00 / 2)

From the VCIA (Vermont Captive Insurance Association) website "Vermont's captive insurance industry generates more than $21 million in premium taxes to the State's general fund, and accounts for over 1400 direct and indirect jobs (full and part-time). Based on a 2003 economic impact report commissioned by the State of Vermont, the captive industry also is an important factor in the state's banking and financial sector with over $1 billion in funds held at Vermont's banks, financial companies and investment managers."

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 21:26:10 PM CST

captives redux (3.00 / 1)

Cairn I have read the report that claims 1,400 "direct & indirect" jobs in VT from captive insurance. It claims 223 "direct" jobs. I said "about 200". I'm not sure I buy the estimate of another 1,200 indirect jobs (the author used a methodology that may or may not be appropriate). As for the $1 billion, it seems highly unlikely that such funds are simply deposited in local banks. No Fortune 500 company would leave tens of millions sitting around getting 2% interest in a bank (especially when they need to invest it). And I'm not sure we want to champion the local banks anyway. If they were really serving the needs of all VT businesses, we wouldn't need VEDA, which does a huge amount of lending that used to be done by banks (which are now rather timid as far as I can tell). As for the symposium, I'm glad you were there (I've heard good things about your work) but let's not forget the title: "Entrepreneurs or Entitlements". Classic Art - false dichotomy. Cheers BTW - I hope this damn thing doesn't scrunch the text again.

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 21:50:44 PM CST

[ Parent ]

text scrunch (3.00 / 1)

I dont know why it's started doing that, but I have a bug report in to Soapblox.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 22:12:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I have a suggestion (3.00 / 1)

I think if we changed the default format from WISWYG to AUTO_FORMAT it might help with the comments problem.

Or it might not. We'll see :)

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 11:03:48 AM CST

[ Parent ]

comment test (3.00 / 1)

test 1

test 2

test 3

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 12:30:00 PM CST

[ Parent ]

GMD Symposium Topic Suggestion (4.00 / 1)

How about a panel or presentation about how to sell shares and otherwise get investors in small-scale renewable energy projects? These projects are important to Vermont's energy future, and if those of us working on them could learn how to use them as financial investments as well, that would help us towards a green economy. Sorry I'm late to the party on this post; I've been flat out with work.

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by: Anne @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 23:54:21 PM CST

More thoughts (4.00 / 2)

Doug the reason I do believe the $1 billion figure is that I was a banker for a decade in the late 80s and early 90s and studied the captive industry in order to write a thesis for a graduate certificate program and I wrote about banking the captive insurance business in Vermont. Given what I know about the industry from a decade ago, and given the pace of formation of new captives, $1 billion is possible. I had one captive customer in the early 90s that initially deposited $50 million in the bank I worked for. In terms of direct and indirect jobs my work on the Vermont Board of Public Accountancy has opened my eyes to the volume of accountants that serve the captive industry. These are "indirect jobs" but they are valid and necessary. The question of the amount of risk that Vermont banks are willing to take on young companies is worthy of research and study. I agree that lending standards have tightened and banks are more "timid" but this is true nationwide and the result of banking regulations passed at the federal level many years ago. My experience with local bankers is that they are very willing to listen to what our portfolio companies have to say and often our companies (even the small ones) can obtain some form of credit from local banks. Every state that I know of has a VEDA like program so I don't think VEDA's existence is due to a unique Vermont banking problem. By the way I would be happy to speak at a GMD business oriented symposium, I am an equal opportunity kind of guy and consider myself fairly middle of the road. Regarding selling "shares" in Vermont alternative energy projects the SEC regulates the sale of securities at the federal level and BISCHA regulates the sale at the state level. Winding through the regulations is not for the faint hearted. One might be able to use Vermont's "VSBOE" regulation to raise increments of $500K or less for a project. There are likely a few securities attorneys in Vermont that would be happy to put on a seminar about this. And Odum in terms of a sliding scale for the registration fee, here's what I would have done if I thought the price was too high; I would have bargained for a lower fee. The Tiger guys are all for the free market, so they should not quibble with bargaining for a better deal. My tactic would have been to say that I would bring a brown bag lunch (the meal costs at these events are typically $30 or so a plate) and see whether the Tiger's would let me in for half price.

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 07:10:18 AM CST

more (4.00 / 1)

Cairn I don't question the $1 billion but I doubt seriously that it's in VT banks. It makes no sense. I also don't doubt that there are indirect jobs from captive activities. But it is MOST unlikely that the employment multiplier is 6+. I'm not aware of ANY industry that results in so many indirect and induced jobs. Indeed, 6 is more than twice the highest multipliers I know. The author used the "base closing" methodology which assumes all related activity would simply disappear. But since most indirect jobs (in this and any other industry) are typically portions of a job (totaling FTEs), most would not disappear (not many accountants have only one client or even one type of client). And as for bank lending practices and VEDA, I never meant to suggest the problem is restricted to VT. But acknowledging the scope of the problem doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss or address it here in VT.

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 09:31:13 AM CST

[ Parent ]

more more (4.00 / 2)

Again, I worked in the banking industry and saw the numbers first hand so you can either believe me Doug or not believe me. Your choice. I have no axe to grind here by the way as I have no ties to the captive industry but I do think it is an example of something the state of Vermont has done right. To be fair the VCIA study says the $1 billion is "in banks or managed by Vermont investment managers." Obviously the portion being managed by managers (and not deposited) would only generate fees for the management companies and would not be able to be used for lending activity. However, this will generate investment management jobs. Still my experience is that there is very significant deposit activity in the local banks. Remember even though these companies are captives they still have to pay claims and so they need a fairly robust operating deposit account with proper liquidity in order to pay the claims. Each captive is managed by a local Vermont manager and the managers used to (and I'm sure still do) talk up the local banking option for captives. Regarding the accounting industry accountants do indeed have many clients but if an individual firm had say 10-12 audit clients that were captives they would likely have one FTE assigned to just the captive clients. Accounting firms tend to have their folks specialize in certain industries if possible. If there were no captives then there would have to be other businesses that needed audit work to fill the gap. An audit as you know is the premium product offering of accounting firms and one that generates substantial fee income. However, few businesses have audits. My guess is perhaps one out of 50 businesses in Vermont has an audit done annually. My guess is that 15% to 20% of captives get their books audited by Vermont firms so that would be approximately 120 to 175 audits of captives performed by Vermont firms. Even though I am pretty rosy about Vermont business opportunities we would have to start one hell of a lot of businesses (assuming my 1 audit per 50 Vermont businesses guess is right) to replace the audit work lost if there was no captive industry. I'm not arguing for the 1,400 employment number as I agree a multiplier of 6 is high, but let's say it is 2 or 3, there are still quite a few jobs (pretty high average pay too) out there due to the captive industry.

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 10:08:06 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks for responding. (4.00 / 1)

We're talking very small-scale projects all over the place. Ours is 63kw for $250,000 investment with an estimated payback period of 10 years. Quicker as energy prices climb. Annual earnings for the town projected at $25-35,000. It has been suggested that rather than rely on grants, we operate in the free market and encourage the money-making aspect of renewable energy. What is VSBOE? I hope Odum will contact you for a securities person reference for our up-coming GMD symposium. I'd get VPIRG, VNRC involved with this one, too. Odum, bring back the paragraph break!

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by: Anne @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 10:47:34 AM CST

[ Parent ]

VSBOE (3.50 / 2)

VSBOE stands for Vermont Small Business Offering Exemption and the details can be found here http://www.bishca.state.vt.us/SecuritiesDiv/VSBOE.htm but I note that Toni Clithero who is noted as the contact person is to my knowledge no longer working for BISCHA as their attorney.

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 11:17:03 AM CST

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Hummmm. (0.00 / 0)

Very interesting. We'll look into it. Thank you.

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by: Anne @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 11:39:42 AM CST

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a few thoughts (4.00 / 1)

Anne Are you talking about a municipal project? If so, the town could bond for the $250,000 at a much lower rate than you'll get from private investors. And if you get your permits, the revenue stream is almost guaranteed so the risk is very small. For such a modest amount, the town could also look into lease-purchase financing, which has become very common for cities & towns (including parking garages, buildings, vehicle fleets, etc.). Again, the revenue stream should be sufficient to meet the lease payments, after which the town owns it. This type of financing is not quite as cheap as general obligation bonds but may not require a ballot item to get voter approval (not a bad thing but a long process). You might also contact Renewable Energy VT (REV) because some of their members have extensive experience in financing such projects. In addition to consulting advice, one of them might be willing to partner with you.

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 11:48:46 AM CST

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Thanks. (4.00 / 1)

Doug, Yes, it is a municipal project. We are on track to get our permits. (It would be helpful if we can get the energy bill through the Legislature this year.) Bonding might be a better way to go than outside investors. We would bring it to Town Meeting. I think they would support it. We'll also look into lease-purchase financing. Thank you very much for your suggestions. Odum, There's one panel for the GMD Symposium: "Funding Community Renewable Energy Projects". Panelists: Someone from REV, someone from VSBOE, someone who could explain lease-purchase financing and bonding (that might be the REV person), and someone to present some example projects from around the state and encourage people to start projects in their towns. It's starting to shape up as a very relevant Symposium ;-) Another few panels and a keynote speaker and we're off to the races. Dare I hope for paragraph breaks?

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by: Anne @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 12:22:10 PM CST

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Thanks Cairn (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for chiming in.  As far as I'm  concerned this is much less of a political conversation than a good opportunity in financial education.  

Nate Freeman

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 14:58:41 PM CST

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you are welcome (3.00 / 1)

Happy to help.  

Cairn Cross

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by: FT123 @ Sun Dec 02, 2007 at 15:10:51 PM CST

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