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Welch meets with anti-war constituents, gets quite the earful

by: JDRyan

Sun Nov 11, 2007 at 23:14:09 PM EST


Congressman Peter Welch met today with a group of some 100-120 Vermonters to discuss the war in the Aldrich Library in Barre today. Hoo boy, where to begin... Let's just say that it was the most heated confrontation that I've ever personally witnessed between constituents and a politician. Much more below the jump, it's a long one...
JDRyan :: Welch meets with anti-war constituents, gets quite the earful

I was there primarily as a participant, and not as a blogger or anything, so unfortunately I wasn't taking notes or pictures. In hindsight, that would have been a good idea. So I'm going to try to give a narrative from the best I can remember. WCAX, WPTZ, The Free Press, the Argus, Peter Freyne, and VPT were among the press in attendance. I've got  a lot of mixed feelings about how all parties involved in this behaved, so bear with me as I try to piece it together. It was very tense and hard to follow at times, so I'm not exactly brimming with detail. If you were there, please let us know your take in the comments.

The meeting was opened by a few words from Palmer Legare, one of the activists arrested at Welch's a few weeks ago. He laid out the format, which I'll get to in a minute. The event then started off with an incredibly moving speech from Dottye Ricks of Graniteville, from the organization Military Families Speak Out. Her husband is one of the many who were injured in Iraq and came back a shadow of his former self, with the resulting problems that are all too well familiar now, in our fifth year of war. She was none too happy with the situation, and visibly quite frustrated with Welch, especially in light of the fact that she put a lot of time in volunteering on his campaign. She looked at him directly in the eye as she spoke, for the most part. Judy Sargent of Plainfield said a few words, and then Will Allen, a farmer from Thetford and the organization "Farms Not Arms" got up and spoke as well . Of all the activists who spoke, he seemed to be the most concise and well-composed, a very impressive guy and undoubtedly an asset to the movement.

Legare then took to the podium to lay out the format of the forum (which Welch was not told of in advance). There was a big board with fifteen questions for Welch, each with three boxes next to them : yes, no, waffle. Some of the questions (if memory serves me correctly, and if those who were more certain have a correction, please let me know):

Do you promise not to vote for any more money for the war?

Will you submit legislation to call home the military contractors in Iraq?

Will you introduce legislation banning the use of depleted uranium?

There were also several questions involving Iran, the Moveon ad, investigations, and impeachment.

The plan was for Welch to  answer the questions directly, yes or no, after which he would be given ten minutes to say what he wanted, and then the floor would be open for questions.

And then all hell broke loose.

Welch wanted to speak before the questions, not after them, mentioning something about wanting to correct something that Legare said about him that he said was untrue. At that point, people started yelling. And yelling. Some people were quite adamant that Welch would adhere to the format. Others were yelling because they wanted to allow Welch to speak at that moment. So the next ten or fifteen minutes was consumed by lots of shouting. Everyone was shouting. People were shouting at Welch. At each other. Microphones were grabbed. It was pretty chaotic. Welch stood his ground, and I'm quite surprised he didn't just walk out of there, because it was quite hostile. You could tell he was very unnerved. Somehow, through the chaos, it was eventually agreed upon that Welch could speak before the questions. And so he began, with a lot of interruptions along the way.

Welch wanted to clarify his voting history on Iraq. I don't have the specifics on what he said. He laid out his history on the votes on Iraq so far, and why he voted the way he did on them. Two things... he did clarify one point about something that I don't think many people know. Voting to allow a vote on something is not the same as voting for something. There was a particular vote that Welch voted to allow to the floor, only to vote against the actual measure itself. Some had misconstrued voting to allow a vote as a support of the bill itself. And absent from this was his mention of his vote on the recent funding bill for the government, which included money for the war (I couldn't stay till the end, a friend mentioned that this eventually did come up). Welch also mentioned the situation at hand, about simply not having the votes to override Bush at this point, especially in the Senate. That didn't go over too well with some in the audience.

Then came the questions. More chaos. Welch was willing to answer the questions, but he wanted a chance to explain himself after each one. Once again, more anger in the room. Finally, he was allowed one or two minutes after each one to explain himself. Now, for the sake of this post not turning into a New York Times Sunday Magazine feature, I just want to go over a few things that stuck out.  Some of the questions Welch answered quite directly, others in that particular politician-speak that none are too fond of. Some questions went away quickly, for he answered yes, and that was that. As far as the MoveOn.org question, I think Welch's reasoning was way off the mark. He is buying into the GOP frame that criticizing a highly politicized general is the same as criticizing the troops. Yes, technically a general is still a 'troop', but it's quite obvious that the ad wasn't attacking the troops. I wasn't happy with his impeachment answer, either, that the GOP would love it as a diversionary tactic and it would keep the congress from doing other important things. Walk and chew gum at the same time? And lastly, one of the questions was in regards to whether or not the U.S. should pay reparations to rebuild Iraq. He said no, we shouldn't pay reparations, we should pay to rebuild Iraq. A member of the audience then pointed out that the difference would be that repairing Iraq would more than likely involve more American companies making even more money, whereas reparations would enable the Iraqis to rebuild it their own way. But more importantly, reparations would be an acknowledgement of wrongdoing on the part of the U.S.

 

The floor then opened up to questions. There were many questions, some about impeachment, the obligatory 9-11 conspiracy nutjob questions which really irked me, and a host of others. People just weren't really happy with Welch. He stuck around to the end. I certainly didn't envy him.

But to address specifically the notion that Peter Welch isn't serious about ending the war, here's my take. I think he really believes that he is doing all he can to stop the war. The problem lies in that his comfort level is much lower than many Vermonters want it to be, and so many of us, myself included, don't believe he is doing all he can. Just listening to what people were saying... being arguably the most antiwar state in the union, many of us can't figure out why he isn't leading forcefully on this issue. People were asking him why he isn't marching with us in anti-war rallies, as anti-war pols who were serious used to  back in the day. I'm baffled because he has nothing to lose  from the voters and everything to gain by taking the lead. We are hungry for real leadership. Some speculate that he' s more concerned about moving up the congressional ladder than taking the lead on the war; that is also a possibility, I really don't know. So while I don't think he's supportive of the war and he really believes he's doing the best he can, I don't think he realizes how much more we expect from him. Maybe after this meeting he will.

I was really put off by the lack of civility at the meeting, and I give Welch a lot of credit for standing his ground for three and a half hours in the midst of what was undoubtedly the most hostile crowd he's ever had to appear in front of. What also didn't sit well with me is that I really felt that certain people wanted this to be a public humiliation of Welch more than a conversation with him. I spoke with a friend who was also there afterwards about it, and he said, "Man, people are mad. They are sick of all of the dying. Children are dying, in our name. Why shouldn't they yell?" I have to say that I agree with my friend, to a point. I guess I probably have a problem with it moreso from a communications standpoint. I can't help but suspect that if the tone wasn't so confrontational from the get-go, that both Welch and the audience might have come to a greater understanding with each other.

Regardless, democracy is not always pretty. I'd like to thank the organizers for making this happen and thank Mr. Welch for showing up and sticking it out.

There's a war going on, and I'm not talking about the "war on terrah" or even Iraq. It's time for a real fight. We need it. The future of our nation depends on it. And if nothing else, I'd like to think that Peter Welch is going to be a little more aware of that the next time an Iraq vote comes up. It would be nice if he'd go beyond that and take the lead in that fight.

UPDATED: WPTZ has a bit of video
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Thanks (0.00 / 0)
JD, thanks for the report.  Wanted to make it there, but was unable to.  I figured it would be somewhat of a melee as you described:)  I wonder, though, if Welch will return to his comfortable office in D.C. that we installed realizing how angry we are about not only the insidious war but the way everything in general is going, or else thinking that we are a bunch of crazy whack jobs.  It will be interesting.

I suspect Welch is getting very comfortable within the routines of Washington.  It's good to let him, let all of them know, how irate we are. 

When you wake up each morning look around you.  It might be the last time you get to do it.  


Thanks for this (0.00 / 0)
Your report was much more thorough than that of the BFP.

juliewaters.com

A follow-up about the coverage on this (0.00 / 0)
I looked at the Rutland Herald's and the Burlington Free Press' coverage about this item and realized that it's the same article.  I then realized that it came from the Associated Press.  It looks as though Lisa Rathke (the author) has written for Vermont before.  Does it have an AP byline because she's a local reporter who's contracted to exchange articles with the AP (either through herself or her paper)?

juliewaters.com

my understanding... (4.00 / 1)
...is that the AP has local offices, or local journalists, or free-lancers who they use to cover a story, and then various papers grab off of the AP's wire the stories they want to.  The rediculous thing, in my eyes, is that the Times Argus/Rutland Herald, the Free Press, and even Brat Reformer should send their own reporters to something like this to cover the stroy in a way that makes the most sense for their local contexts- an AP story is intentionally written to be as devoid of local angles as possible so as to appeal to the greatest number of readers regionally, nationally, and even internationally.

I haven't seen the AP article on this, so I'm just talking in general here.  But, I mean, the State's lone congressman meets with an ad hoc group of hostile citizens regarding one of THE top issues of our day? not one news agency in the State should have left it to the AP.

-In America the people fear their government; in France, it is the government that fears the people

www.integralpsychosis.com


[ Parent ]
Sounds like it was envisioned as a trial... (4.00 / 1)
...rather than a meeting.

It seemed clear to me a while ago from some of the emails going around that many of the organizers are motivated  not by anger at what's going on, but by an absolute hatred of Welch personally.

Hate doesn't get you anywhere or bring out anything good or productive, and it shouldn't be encouraged. I feel for the plain-ol' angry people (folks like you and Watercloset) who might go to such an event for a productive meeting, but have to interact with their congressman through the filter of this nearly pathological, unreasoning hate that a few of his louder critics insist on self-righteously putting front and center. There is nothing righteous about hate.

It's just as well I couldn't make it.

undercaffeinated


Maybe we should invite him to do a liveblog here? (4.00 / 2)
I really hate meetings where people are shouted down.  What if we invited him to do a live blog Q&A session here? 

juliewaters.com

[ Parent ]
You don't think he would get shouted down here? (0.00 / 0)
Hmmmm...  All it takes is one or two trolls to ruin an otherwise good thing.

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com


[ Parent ]
You can't shout someone down on a blog. (0.00 / 0)
You can post a lot, but you can't actually interrupt them while they're speaking.  It's a very different environment.

juliewaters.com

[ Parent ]
Righteous hate (0.00 / 0)
"There is nothing righteous about hate." Unless of course they are Republicans.

[ Parent ]
Why do you hate republicans, eotr? n/t (0.00 / 0)


undercaffeinated

[ Parent ]
Excellent Report (4.00 / 1)
JD gave a good summary of the event. Here are a couple of additional comments not mentioned in media reports:
1. This is the first use, that I know of in Vermont, of this type of Accountability Model, whereby the "public" gets to control the questions and the mike. This is important because the media no longer is fulfilling this role.  No Vermont political leader would have agreed to this format, including Welch.
By confronting him with it, even though he was allowed in the end, to comment on his answers, puts this process into play in Vermont, and should be used again in the future.
I suggest that candidates for election in Vermont will be asked whether they will submit to this Accountability format once or twice during their terms, where the "public" gets the control of the platform.
Some of us who worked to set this up wondered whether Welch would walk out, or take over the mike.
After the initial shouting, with the help of Alex Thayer, compromise was reached, and the modified agenda allowed the questions to be asked, and answered, and more importantly, those folks present were able to ask their questions and make their comments.
Perhaps the missing element was a failure of the organizers to insure that the descrepancies between the organizer's "Welch and the War Fact Sheet" and the Welch sheet, "Votes on the War in Irag" were not fully explored and explained.
In the end, however, I believe the passion of the day had to have a positive effect on the man.
We shall see.
Bud

your "Accountability model"... (0.00 / 0)
...sounds like an inquisition to me.

"By confronting him with it"  Read: by sandbagging or ambushing him. Why should he ever trust you again, when an agreed to "meeting" turned out to be a surprise kangaroo court?

"he was allowed in the end, to comment on his answers" How gracious that he was allowed to actually, you know, participate as a full human being.  How extraordinarily benevolent of you.

Can you not even hear yourself? Good god.

undercaffeinated


[ Parent ]
I totally disagree (4.00 / 1)
While it certainly sounds like there was a lack of organizing and formatting -though clearly there was some- Welch is in a possition of extreme power, relative to average people, but that power is supposedly derived from the people.  This sort of "accountability" is a huge step in grassroots, direct, participatory democracy.  Imagine- Welch took part in a public meeting with the people he represents and it was not organized or sponsored by ANY group, organization or institution.  Just a bunch  of people who generally have a similar opinion on one issue.  That is amazing and pretty much unprecidented in this country in this day and age.

And we, as a people and culture and nation, have very little (mostly none) experience with this kind of de-centralized organizing, power-sharing, and 'accountability'.  Of course it was a bit sloppy and chaotic.  But as it happens more, and as people learn more and more about what works and what doesn't, and as people just get used to the idea of having the opportunity to participate beyond once or twice a year voting (and what we buy, we get so many opportunities to participate politically when we buy stuff!!!) then this kind of thing will become more and more effective and productive.

-In America the people fear their government; in France, it is the government that fears the people

www.integralpsychosis.com


[ Parent ]
Youre arguing... (0.00 / 0)
...entirely in favor of a meeting, which I never said I was opposed to. I thought that was clear from previous posts, but in case it wasn't, let me say: I think these sorts of meetings are important.

It was the ambush format of this that I object to: the inquisition-style, wannabe-courtroom-drama meant to dehumanize and humiliate him, supposedly under the pretext of being a "dialogue." That sucks.

undercaffeinated


[ Parent ]
well, that does suck (4.00 / 1)
part of my point was simply that, of course it's going to come out that way, we have no experience in our lives whatsoever to interact in this format.  and i believe it's such an important step (for democracy, equality, etc) that suffering through the ugliness and the imperfections are not only well worth it, but necessary.

-In America the people fear their government; in France, it is the government that fears the people

www.integralpsychosis.com


[ Parent ]
to the extent the ugliness was fueled by hatred (0.00 / 0)
It was completely unnecessary, and I suspect (from the viewpoint of the anti-Welch crowd), completely counterproductive, as the sympathies  on the blogs, the comments on the media sites and the radio - across the political spectrum - seem to be lining up firmly behind Welch, simply in defense of what they see as an organized attempt to bully him.

You can't tell me that this is the way it had to go down.

undercaffeinated


[ Parent ]
no, certainly not (4.00 / 1)
it did not have to go any particular way.  but the fact that it did go as it did should not and doesn't need to distract from the actual point- which is that there's a horrible, horrible war going on and people are sick of it and sick of not doing anything about it.  and the methods employed in the past to try and end it just simply haven't done jack s**t, so folks are looking to other methods.

conversations about your or mine or this guy over there's opinion of the finer intracacies of tactics are useful, to a degree, for doing something better or different in the future.  but on the other hand, people who feel a personal need/desire to act because they feel passionate that they have a connection/duty/whatever to act are going to go ahead and do whatever makes sense to them.  other people's critiques, as well as other peoples ability and willingness to agree with them are meaningless (not meant to be a mean-spirited statement towards you or anyone in particular JO, just a social/historical observation).

-In America the people fear their government; in France, it is the government that fears the people

www.integralpsychosis.com


[ Parent ]
"lining up behind welch" (4.00 / 1)
is an obvious reaction to defend against something new and unknown (i.e., this nature of this meeting).  it is largely meaningless- by which i mean that the only moral thing is to end the war, and so however that happens (obviously with the exception of physically hurting or killing others) is just how it happens. 

-In America the people fear their government; in France, it is the government that fears the people

www.integralpsychosis.com


[ Parent ]
Lining up behind Welch isn't so much about "new and unknown..." (0.00 / 0)
as it is about rude and antagonistic. 

I've got no problem with challenging elected officials.  I have a real problem with inviting someone to a meeting without informing them as to the format in advance (i.e., ambushing them) and then attacking him for wanting to have a discussion.

juliewaters.com


[ Parent ]
Accountability model? (4.00 / 1)
"Allowed . . . to comment on his answers"?

"No Vermont political leader would have agreed to this format, including Welch"?

Would you go into a hostile audience and agree to these conditions? I doubt it.

When I'm in court cross-examining a witness, or deposing a hostile witness, I am entirely justified in demanding that they answer the questions I ask in the precise way that I ask them. If I ask a question that can be answered with a yes or no answer, I am entitled to that answer.

If I'm trying to engage in a constructive dialogue with someone nothing could be less productive than shouting him down if he won't give me a yes or no answer. A one-word answer likely won't capture his full meaning, and calling every answer that he won't reduce to a "yes" or "no" a "waffle" distorts the nature of the response.


[ Parent ]
Accountability Model, Third Opinion (0.00 / 0)
I suppose what seems most odd to me is that the audience was not organized, in the sense that they apparently did not know the format either.  It sounds like a few people planned this approach and, on the one hand, did not communicate this to Welch staff for strategic reasons (what ever one feels about that), but on the other hand, did not communicate it to the attendants.  The reports I'm reading, including JDs excellent, fair-handed diary, makes it appear that amidst the vocal melee there was disagreement among attendants on how the meeting should be formatted.  So the appearance is also one of disorganization, which could have been prevented with a blog diary or group email.

I find Michael Colby's response to a caller on the Mark Johnson show this morning to the question of formating the yes/no answer actually quite apt.  If, in Congress, the question is an up or down vote -- yes or no -- than it can be appropriate to ask a Representative to take a stand on a question.  Albeit, allowing him the room to respond in the manner of "Yes, and let me tell you why...."  If it was intended to be an actual model for congressional accountability, than it's debut to the stage was brought out a little to early and not very well thought out.

With respect to all who attended, although I wish it hadn't got so loud,

Nate Freeman

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com


[ Parent ]
Thanks. (4.00 / 2)
Thanks for your comments, people. I guess what I wanted to make clear was that I really have mixed feelings about all of it. The incivility did overshadow everything else for me, but WElch did have an opportunity to calm it down had he given some more straightforward answers on some things.  But, as Odum said, I still think there were some people in there that wouldn't have been happy no matter what he said. Disappointing all around.

The "Civility" Issue (4.00 / 1)
Hi Folks -- I was one of the organizers of yesterday's event, along with having been one of those arrested in Welch's office.  First a couple of corrections to previous accounts posted on this Blog: It should be pointed out that Cong. Welch was the one who broke first with "civility", standing up and demanding to speak and starting to do so without asking and receiving permission from the moderator or the audience is if he owned the event. It was our event, not his.  He or his staff could have asked ahead of time about what the format was going to be, but they did not do so. We would have told them. And it was one of Welch's (few) supporters, a big guy in the front row, who got up at that point and started ranting and raving and denouncing the organizers as "fascists" for allegedly not letting Welch speak (which we were happy to do in the proper time and which was on the agenda as laid out for all at the top of the meeting). Second, the angry people at the event were very far from being only some of us original organizers.  There were may participants, including the woman who was screaming at Welch at the top of her lungs in the Q&A's near the end who were people none of us knew.  Clearly, more than we thought, the meeting tapped into a lot of simmering anger that is out there against  the War and at the betrayal of the Democrats to do anything real to stop it. From my point of view, it was good that our sole congressman got a very loud earful.

The other thing I want to say to you "good liberals" on this Blog who seem so hung up on "civility", what I would call "bourgeois respectablity", is to ask you how much more killing and torturing has to be done in our name and with our tax dollars (voted for by Welch) before you are willing to get some righteous anger.  Another million dead in Iraq?  How much more can you take and still continue to be polite to those responsible?  What's going to ever make you more miltant?

jay
www.neravt.com/left/


[ Parent ]
So it goes... (2.00 / 2)
...The other thing I want to say to you "good liberals" on this Blog who seem so hung up on "civility", what I would call "bourgeois respectablity..."

See, if I didn't think that civility was relevant, I'd be very tempted to respond to this bait with the phrase "bite me."

Fortunately, I'm a bit more polite than that and I do think it's important to use techniques for dialog which are not only psychologically purging, but useful.  It's clear from the fact that Welch didn't walk out in the middle of the event that he was willing to talk even given the hostile format.  It's also clear that you guys need to learn a little bit about good discussion facilitation.

juliewaters.com


[ Parent ]
Thanks f (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for chiming in, Jay...

As I've expressed before, my issue isn't to delegitimize anger. But as Julie pointed oput, there's something to be said for useful communication in the sense that the only thing conveyed was anger. There was very little opportunity for conversation however. ANd if your'e ok with that, fine, but I don't see how that fosters a greater understanding for either party. And I'm not defending Welch, either. Some of his answers were quite lame.


[ Parent ]
I Want an Answer (Civil or Otherwise) (2.50 / 2)
So I'm still waiting for a reply to my Big Question at the end.  What's it going to take for you and people like you to get off your asses, get into the streets, and help us make change happen before it's too late?

[ Parent ]
To clarify (2.50 / 2)
I've no problem with you getting arrested in Welch's office, but I don't see it as having any useful impact in terms of getting us out of Iraq.  I see it as having even less of an impact when your primary mode of dealing with those who don't think exactly as you do is not so much to figure out where the differences lie but to instead simply engage in personal attacks.

juliewaters.com

[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 1)
But had they not gotten arrested, I don't think Welch would have agreed to this meeting, so I do applaud them for that.

There was simply no room for reasoned debate yesterday. Some people are fine with that. I'm not.


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what the "no" means, but... (2.00 / 2)
But had they not gotten arrested, I don't think Welch would have agreed to this meeting, so I do applaud them for that.

There was simply no room for reasoned debate yesterday. Some people are fine with that. I'm not.

That seems fair.  Now if we could only get people who know how to facilitate a meeting to get arrested... (and no, I don't mean me).

juliewaters.com


[ Parent ]
Sorry-- forgot one detail (2.50 / 2)
The reason I didn't reply to your "big question" at the end is because I stopped reading when you used the phrase "bourgeois respectablity."  Generally speaking, that sort of phrase is the mark of someone who wants to shut people up, not someone who wants to engage in a dialog.

juliewaters.com

[ Parent ]
I'm Serious, Guys! (4.00 / 1)
I hope I'm replying to the right person. Anyway, I am very serious about my question which has puzzled me for a long time.  What does it take to get people beyond respecting and deferring to "our elected official" and angry and activated to challenge the System, which is responsible for war.  I got beyond my own "good liberal" stage a long time ago (as a liberal in the conservative southern town where I grew up supporting LBJ in 1964 over Goldwater) and by age 21 was out in the streets raising hell about "the War" (the Vietnam War, for you young folks)and getting in the face, on one memorable occasion, of Spiro Agnew and calling him a war criminal, which he undoubtedly was.  By acting out in various ways, sometimes breaking the law, we ended that war (along with the courage of the Vietnamese resistance).  And that's what we have got to be doing now, in my opinion.  So, with all due respect, I really do want to know what it's going to take for people like  you to get to that point of losing respect for the System and taking some more determined and militant action against it.

[ Parent ]
I dunno (1.67 / 3)
What does it take to get you to treat people who disagree with you with the same respect you demand from them? Whether or not they have a title (like Congressman) in front of their name, or even if they're (gasp), good liberals (and don't think we're all too stupid to get the "good Germans" reference).

Here's the difference between passionate advocates and zealots: Let's be honest - a passionate advocate, like all of us, think they're the smartest ones in the room, and the most moral ones in the room. We're all guilty of that. Hopefully we're socialized enough to tamp that down and still follow the golden rule.

A zealot, on the other hand, thinks they (and their echo chamber buddies) are the ONLY smart people in the room. The ONLY moral people in the room.

So I'll trade you "big questions," Jay - are you a zealot?

Please answer either "yes" or "no", or I'll have to mark you down as a "waffle"

undercaffeinated


[ Parent ]
My Civility wearing Thin (2.50 / 2)
Yes, I am a zealot for ending this War. I'm not just a blog wanker, apparently like you.

[ Parent ]
waffle n/t (0.00 / 0)


undercaffeinated

[ Parent ]
Question? (0.00 / 0)
You speak of militant action. Is violent militant action off the table?

[ Parent ]
I'm interested in ending the war (2.00 / 2)
I'm less interested about making sure you get what you "want."

undercaffeinated

[ Parent ]
Honestly... (4.00 / 1)
I don't think we have a "war."  I think we just have an endless occupation.

juliewaters.com

[ Parent ]
please don't go there (0.00 / 0)
I know you're gonna beat up on me for saying this, but a couple of your replies do not seem to be elevating the conversation today.  I wouldn't call you on it, but your own quote is, "Be excellent to each other.  Or else."

Sorry to be public.  It's just that those who have been around here a while don't need to add to a flame war, don't you agree?

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com


[ Parent ]
Not my quote (0.00 / 0)
It's soapblox's.

It's okay, Nate. We all have our priorities.

You'll forgive me if I take offense when somebody states that interacting with me is inherently a waste of their time because of my disagreements with them over strategy, and in the same post follows it up with a demand that I justify my worth as an activist to him before he will deign to offer me the same respect he demands for himself.

You'll also forgive me if I find it odd that you consider such a comment "marginal", while a negative reaction to it is "unproductive."

Just depends on you.

undercaffeinated


[ Parent ]
What's it going to take? (0.00 / 0)
Well, first an acknowledgement from you that not everyone shares your tolerance for risk, anbd that doesn't some how make them less concerned or make them an asshole. I've marched, I've spent time in jail for several days in another country for protesting, and there are other times where I just couldn't take the risk due to where my life was at that particular moment. Gonna question my commitment? Piss off, then (not directed at you, Jay, more a general statement).

Whit will it take? I don't know. There is nothing that will end the war as long as Bush is President. Not one goddamn thing, short of something that would put one in Guantanamo or Leavenworth. And I don't say that to mean we shouldn't try, because at the very least, if our actions keep ramping up, by the time the next Prez is in there, they'll have a lot less wiggle room. But demonizing those who disagree with your tactics or don't share your level of conviction (which, again, I commend you for), isnt' going to end the war either, and it's going to turn away people that would otherwise be considered allies.


[ Parent ]
Thanks and a Question (4.00 / 1)
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, J.D.  Please don't misunderstand me: I think it takes all kinds, as long as  you're being active.  I spent a year or more going faithfully to the Friday noon peace vigil in Montepelier.  I'm glad they're still at it but I think we need to take this struggle, if we can figure out ways to do it, to the "next level".  What happened in Barre yesterday came out of that "next step" kind of thinking. Of course, I wish more people than there are now were ready to do that.

So I'm new to this blog and I don't know your positions.  I tend to agree with you that nothing good will happen til Bush and Cheney are out of office (although I'm not sanguine about the prospects of the Dem. presidential candidates doing any better).  That leads me to support impeachment (and conviction)for high crimes and misdemeanors. Are you for impeachment?  Welch added fuel to the fire, so-to-speak, yesterday when he obdurately refused to give any ground on his opposition to impeachment (for the specious reason that it detracts from other "important business") despite the fact that, according to that recent WCAX poll, two-thirds of the people in Vermont are for it.


[ Parent ]
Thanks for asking... (0.00 / 0)
Well, if you read my diaries, you'd see I'm hardly a party person, quite the opposite, more so someone who will work with people from both camps to try to get what's done. I'm thoroughly 110% behind impeachment, but I'm also well aware of the political reality that there is no chance in hell of it happening at this time. And I'm also very disappointed that there's been very few attempts to do it. I don't buy Welch's excuses at all, simply because they're not credible. I think in that instance he's definitely listening to Pelosi.

[ Parent ]
Unclear: He said/He said? (0.00 / 0)
I wasn't there, so I'll bite on your reference to a "Welch supporter" starting the pissing match -- not that it really matters who started it.  I'm hoping maybe JD can clear this up.  From the diary:

"At that point, people started yelling. And yelling. Some people were quite adamant that Welch would adhere to the format. Others were yelling because they wanted to allow Welch to speak at that moment. So the next ten or fifteen minutes was consumed by lots of shouting. Everyone was shouting. People were shouting at Welch. At each other. Microphones were grabbed. It was pretty chaotic."

So does everyone mean Everyone?  I'm confident, JD, that you weren't yelling.  Were there some people not yelling?  Was it just the audience, or did it include Welch supporters?

Guess I'm being a stickler on details, but a lot of posts seems to be treating all attendants as a homogeneous group.  I'm not quite sure of that.  I mean, is it appropriate to put Dottye Ricks in the same category of group and group behavior with Palmer Legare?  I don't know either one, so if it is appropriate, hey, I'll buy it.  But if in fact they came from really different angles and behaved differently at the event, then I think that should be acknowledged, too.

JD, it was really, really great that you provided the report, and unfortunately the event was apparently covered by a lone AP reporter.  (Freyne being a columnist.)  I guess the thing I'm struggling with is the lack of detail (no criticism directed toward you) that makes the event and it's attendants too easy to pigeon hole.

Last thought:  Was the word fascist actually used?  I hope not. Turning any word that describes a political view (think: "liberal") into an epithet is just getting a bit tiresome.

From wikipedia: 

# The word "fascist" ( or "fascism") is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions or groups that would not describe themselves as fascist and that do not fall within the formal definition of the word. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist (epithet)

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com


[ Parent ]
well... (0.00 / 0)
Like I said, it was short on detail because it was so chaotic. But to answer your questions...

Everyone? Perhaps not. Half the people in the room? Sure. I might have yelled or groaned loudly once or twice, when Welch gave some slick pol answer or somebody in the audience said something ridiculous.

I heard fascist muttered a couple of times, once in regards to the crowd and maybe a few times directed at the government or Bush or something.

Regardless, there was little room for rational discourse. Perhaps that was the intention from some people. I don't know.
It was a diverse group, and no, it wasn't one huge mob calling for Welch's head. But you know how these things go; it only takes a few people to really give the perception of chaos. And that's part of the problem... the goal is to put pressure on Welch to end the war, but you have various tactical viewpoints.


[ Parent ]
Unproductive day... (0.00 / 0)
Have to agree with JD, although I have been a harsh critic of Welch, the incivility and lack of respect given to Welch was inappropriate. I highly disagree with Welch's positions on Impeachment and I would like him to be more aggressive as it pertains to investigations and ending the war, however he openly came to this meeting willing to listen and work with the crowd to the common goal of ending the war. I felt that Welch and the rest of us left this meeting more divided than we were before.

Unproductive Day 2 (0.00 / 0)
Just to clarify the last comment was actually from Robb Kidd, I was using my partners computer.

Gotta say, though (0.00 / 0)
That I love that user ID.

[ Parent ]
Yes or No (0.00 / 0)
Here's a Yes or No question that Welch answered:

http://www.congress....


Hope you do (0.00 / 0)
LOL..hope you do.  Keep it up.

When you wake up each morning look around you.  It might be the last time you get to do it.  

mercy...we got the broom handle blues (0.00 / 0)
Thank you all so much for the new(old) material.  Perhaps a poem on COUNTERPUNCH:  "One Flew Over The Vermont Democrats' Nest (and shat)"

Civility?  We must have killed 100 Iraqi children while this blog debate went on.  There's another one: "From An Iraqi Child--You Killed Me, But Thank You For Doing It Politely"

Or this for a future headline: "Bush Bombs Iran And Syria...Russians And Chinese Threaten Intervention...Martial Law Declared in U.S....'08 Elections
Suspended...President Says CIVIL Unrest Will Be Dealt With By Blackwater...Congress Vigils"

Yeah, just keep being polite. (PUKE!)


Follow up (0.00 / 0)
I wrote a follow-up to this, but you're gonna have to go here to read it. And leave a comment or two, dammit.

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