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Basic statistical literacy or lack thereof

by: JulieWaters

Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 07:26:29 AM EDT


In the prior thread, there was discussion about how 7 Days disclosed all its polling and lack of participation, which is technically accurate, but missing a bit: it's fairly easy to find a 7 Days article that references the poll results without talking about poor participation, such as:

http://www.7dvt.com/2010legislative-survey-results.  On that piece there is no mention of the poor results.  You have to go to the piece which does "analysis" of the findings for that.  It indicates a low response rate but doesn't acknowledge that that low response rate is relatively poor:

Of the 400 surveys sent out, only 30 came back with legitimate answers - a response rate of 7.5 percent. That's better than direct mail - for which a 2 percent return rate is considered successful - and not too much worse than the turnout for a Burlington election, which was 23 percent on Town Meeting Day. Honestly, we hoped for better.

Just to clarify here: direct mail has an entirely different goal than surveys.  Direct mail isn't intended to assess opinion.  It's intended to sell things.

Surveys which attempt to assess opinion generally use sampling, so having a small sample size is acceptable, but it depends on the size of the sample group and how much stock you want to take in the results.  A sample of about 100 people out of 400 would give you a fairly solid confidence interval.  A sample of less than 1/3rd of that gives you very little confidence at all in the results.

Honestly, the comparison of the results to direct mail response results isn't just poor judgment: it represents a complete and total lack of understanding of what statistics are and how they work.  

JulieWaters :: Basic statistical literacy or lack thereof
That piece also makes an odd inference.  When referencing the "most ethically challenged" item, it doesn't just report on the results, but actually tries to connect them to a specific event:

During last month's Mardi Gras parade in Burlington, Sen. Peter Shumlin climbed aboard an anti-Vermont Yankee float  sponsored by the Vermont Public Interest Research Group. No doubt he saw it as an opportunity in the wake of the Senate vote against the nuke plant. Turns out he may have used VPIRG polling information to his political advantage, too. Smart, affable and possessing sales skills some would describe as "slick," the senator from Putney never misses an opportunity to advance his ambitious agenda...

This isn't part of the survey.  It's not part of anything involving the survey at all.  It's just 7D waxing about Shumlin.  That's fine, but it's not analysis of the results.  It's just opinion under the guise of information.

Which brings me to the last point about this survey's "analysis:"  when you send out surveys like this to individuals with political ambition and goals, it's very easy for a small group of people to game the survey to serve their own agendas.  

And to be fair: I expect this sort of nonsense from political organizations.  The Heritage Foundation routinely uses real data to create an "analysis" of the information designed and targeted to suit their political agenda.  It's slimy, but I expect it from that sort of organization.

Media, on the other hand, has an ethical obligation to see to it that those doing "analysis" of their information actually have the basic competencies to do the job and to do so in a fashion which doesn't serve a political agenda.  By performing this sort of "analysis" under the guise of a legitimate news organization, they are basically doing the work of the Dubie campaign by allowing them to take fake facts and present them as real facts.

There's a lot I like about 7 Days, but the way they handled this?  I don't know if it's malice or incompetence at play here, but if it's neither of those, it's just reckless disregard for the truth.  

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Raise Your Voice!

I could have gone into more stastical analysis, but... (4.00 / 1)
...I was worried I'd put people into a coma.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

This was a survey ... not a poll (0.00 / 0)
and as it was presented as nothing but a survey applying statistical analysis makes no sense.

You're flogging that proverbial dead horse ... the live one is the fact that Dubie and "Friends" are basing an outright lie on an acknowledged non-representative survey.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


I would love to understand your distinction (0.00 / 0)
What's the difference between a survey and a poll in your eyes?  And why is that germane to a critique of 7Days?

Become a fan of our grassroots campaign on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/todd4v...

[ Parent ]
Polls are designed to provide statistically relevant numbers (grain of salt here) ... (1.50 / 4)
such as x% of voters across the nation agree with position Y. Don't mistake this for any claim to legitimacy for any given poll - there are ways to encourage a certain set of answers. The point being a poll puts forth an opinion as a representative view of a total population based upon the opinions of a sub-group of that total population.

A survey, on the other hand, is intended to represent the views of those who responded. (Yes - there are lots of blurry lines, and we often run into mis-labeling.)

Why is it germane to the 7 Days/Dubie and "Friends" lying topic? Simple: although it was crappy journalism, the 7 Days reporting on their survey results was nothing more than that - reporting on their survey results.

Simple fact: the 7 Days survey and following story is not some aberration in being crappy reporting. We see this in most, if not all, of todays news reporting media at varying levels of appearance.

Take, for example, the horrendous coverage that the phony ACORN videos garnered around the nation. The weasel welch couldn't wait to join his reactionary, radical right wing allies in congress to attack and destroy ACORN and all the good they were doing in empowering those who the likes of welch have helped to dis-empower.

Does that make the weasel welch's actions the fault of the news coverage? Absolutely not - welch chose to do what he did (and to this day stands by it) of his own free will.

The real ACORN aftermath story for Vermont is how untrustworthy and dishonest the weasel welch is.

The real story here is the one folks seem absolutely resistant to go after: Dubie and "Friends" are passing out a blatant lie based upon this 7 Days story.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


[ Parent ]
Actually, an opinion poll... (4.00 / 1)
...is a specific subset of surveys, but I don't honestly think you care about that as much as you care about defending 7 Days, regardless of the facts.

Do you honestly think that people here are resistant to go after Dubie for slimy campaign tactics?  Do you read this blog?

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer


[ Parent ]
Julie ... (0.00 / 0)
below you wrote
[7 Days] did report what they did accurately

which is all that I've claimed regarding that 7 Days article from the get go.

And because of my agreement with your assessment, Julie, that led me to the statement that 7 Days doesn't deserve any of the blame for the way that Dubie and "Friends" based a blatant lie on the article ... that blame falls 100% on the liars.

That has been my "thesis" if I've had one - don't blame the piss poor reporting done by 7 Days for the lies someone else builds off of it.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


[ Parent ]
Meh (0.00 / 0)
I Meh'd this because I don't think it's trolling: you were responding to my direct question.

Regardless, I find your argument less than compelling, particularly since your thesis appears to be that nobody is blaming Dubie, which is just a bit inaccurate on your part.  One can blame Truman for dropping the bomb and blame my great uncle for helping develop it at the same time--one can even note the difference degrees of culpability.

Become a fan of our grassroots campaign on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/todd4v...


[ Parent ]
"You're flogging that proverbial dead horse..." (4.00 / 2)

It's ironic that you would type those words while continuing to make the same point over and over and over...

I understand your point.

You think Dubie and "Friends" are responsible and you want everyone else to stop placing any blame on 7Days.

It appears that there are other posters on this site who have concluded that leveling some amount of blame on both the Dubie campaign and 7Days need not be mutually exclusive.

Instead of convincing everyone to your point of view, your repetitious posts lead me to believe that you're more interested in convincing us that you're the smartest person in the room and we're all dodo heads for not seeing this issue the way you do.

You can rest assured that I understand your opinion, I disagree with your assessment and now you're flogging your own dead horse.


[ Parent ]
Thank you (4.00 / 1)
Sort of what I was getting at in a comment yesterday about the confidence interval on the # being +/-18%.

Real Issues (4.00 / 1)
There are two issues here; 1. Seven Days slandered Shumlin with the publication of an idiotic survey.  They need to apologize for that stupidity.  2.  Dubie knowingly, or at least should have known, used the ill-conceived survey to create a political ad that used the ill-conceived data as fact.  Vermonters need to punish Dubie (and place all future politicians on notice) by voting for Shumlim.  Case closed!

[ Parent ]
Not quite (0.00 / 0)
If Seven Days had committed the act you claim, it would be libel, not slander.  That said, they didn't do either.  They did report what they did accurately, but they presented it a way which relied on (and was possibly contributed to by) ignorance of statistics to lend it validity.

But it's neither slander nor libel to report on the results of a survey with a poor response rate.  It's not good to do it, nor is it necessarily right to do it, but it's not an actionable offense either.

We can discuss this without using misleading language.  Slander and libel have very specific legal meanings and you should know what they are and how they're used before you accuse anyone of them.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer


[ Parent ]
I actually gravitate towards reel on this. (4.00 / 3)
Reporters report on news. There was no news that some combination of legislators and lobbyists adding up to a whopping 12 would seize the opportunity to call Peter Shumlin unethical, given an anonymous platform, and knowing that he was going to be running for higher office. That's not news.

Reporting it - especially the way they did - might not be libelous, but it was slimy. It was not journalism.

Since their "survey" produced nothing reportable for that particular question at least, they should have reported it as such (we only had a tiny handful of respondents to the question, not nearly statistically enough to responsibly name a winner... maybe next year or somesuch). They didn't. They went up with it anyway. Hence, it was nothing more than a smear with their seal of approval on it, and since defended on air by the publisher.

Shame on 7 Days.


Nullius perfectus est


[ Parent ]
I completely agree with you (4.00 / 1)
it was not journalism.  It was slimy.  But it wasn't slander and it wasn't libel.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

[ Parent ]
If Shumlin weren't a public figure... (0.00 / 0)
...it could well have been libelous.

Nullius perfectus est

[ Parent ]
Quite possibly, but... (0.00 / 0)
...it's still not libel.

Look, if you can hassle me over my misuse of GOTV, I'm allowed to point out the misuse of terms such as libel and slander, terms which have a fairly specific legal meaning.  They are thrown around with relatively high frequency.  It's generally a bad idea to let slide the use of them in casual conversation without thinking about what they actually mean.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer


[ Parent ]
Hold on, hold on... (0.00 / 0)
I'm reasonably well versed on standards for libel, slander, and how those charges stand up in different contexts, especially in the public vs. non-public figure context. It's my opinion - somewhat informed - that such a report would have been libelous, if its target had been a non-public figure - at least the argument could likely have been allowed to be made in civil court, and civil trials have different standards.

I'm just sayin'. I was most certainly not "let(ting slide the use of (the term) in casual conversation without thinking about what (it) actually means" one whit.

Nullius perfectus est


[ Parent ]
Julie ... (0.00 / 0)
above you wrote
[7 Days] did report what they did accurately

which is all that I've claimed regarding that 7 Days article from the get go.

And because like you, Julie, I see that 7 Days "did report what they did accurately" I've made the claim that 7 Days doesn't deserve any of the blame for the way that Dubie and "Friends" based a blatant lie on the article ... that blame falls 100% on the liars.

That has been my "thesis" if I've had one - don't blame the piss poor reporting done by 7 Days for the lies someone else builds off of it.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


[ Parent ]
7D has the good, bad and the ugly (4.00 / 1)
. . .just like everyone else.  This fell into the ugly category.

And 7D itself called it a "survey" in the headline and a "pol" poll in the sub-headline

http://www.7dvt.com/2010legisl...

Best,
Ed


REALLY??? THIS DESERVED TO BE HIDDEN????? (1.00 / 1)
Polls are designed to provide statistically relevant numbers (grain of salt here) ...

such as x% of voters across the nation agree with position Y. Don't mistake this for any claim to legitimacy for any given poll - there are ways to encourage a certain set of answers. The point being a poll puts forth an opinion as a representative view of a total population based upon the opinions of a sub-group of that total population.
A survey, on the other hand, is intended to represent the views of those who responded. (Yes - there are lots of blurry lines, and we often run into mis-labeling.)

Why is it germane to the 7 Days/Dubie and "Friends" lying topic? Simple: although it was crappy journalism, the 7 Days reporting on their survey results was nothing more than that - reporting on their survey results.

Simple fact: the 7 Days survey and following story is not some aberration in being crappy reporting. We see this in most, if not all, of todays news reporting media at varying levels of appearance.

Take, for example, the horrendous coverage that the phony ACORN videos garnered around the nation. The weasel welch couldn't wait to join his reactionary, radical right wing allies in congress to attack and destroy ACORN and all the good they were doing in empowering those who the likes of welch have helped to dis-empower.

Does that make the weasel welch's actions the fault of the news coverage? Absolutely not - welch chose to do what he did (and to this day stands by it) of his own free will.

The real ACORN aftermath story for Vermont is how untrustworthy and dishonest the weasel welch is.

The real story here is the one folks seem absolutely resistant to go after: Dubie and "Friends" are passing out a blatant lie based upon this 7 Days story.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


Shouldn't have been hidden with one '0' (0.00 / 0)
Let me check the settings.

Nullius perfectus est

[ Parent ]
Yeah (4.00 / 1)
The setting had been changed to something absurdly high. It was set to hide comments that didn't average at least a '2' with a sufficient number of rates - that's nuts. Somebody must've been in there and accidentally twitched a key or something... dont think it was me, as I haven't been in there for months, but you never know.

Nullius perfectus est

[ Parent ]
The troll rating came from me (4.00 / 1)
You drag in your old "weasel Welch" line in a thread that has nothing to do with ACORN and you'll have that.

That actually was quite germane ... (0.00 / 0)
the exact same actions and principles were in play.

And the exact same end results: Dubie and "Friends" lying based on a non-story and the weasel welch lying based on a non-story, and both are still lying about it today.

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)


[ Parent ]

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