Stay classy, guys.

I think you're being too harsh (0.00 / 0)

I don't see why SVR isn't allowed to sponsor their member bios in musical form.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 10:01:27 AM UTC

So... (0.00 / 0)

What is the message they are trying to convey here?

You'd have to be crazy to support an independent Republic of Vermont?  

Only crazy people want independence from America?

Or maybe, you have to be criminally insane to actually pull it off?

Whatever they are trying to say, it always comes off as they are the ones that are dangerous...

I used to like the concept of a separate nation made up of northern New England and the Maritime provinces, but once I heard of the 'cozy' relationship between some of the SVR and the racist bigots of the south I wanted nothing more to do with them.

VT Teddy Bear doesn't surprise me as they were one of the companies that continued to advertise on Glenn Beck's show.

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by: Comrade Rutherford @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 13:56:34 PM UTC

Reading into this too much (0.00 / 0)

I think you are making something small into a huge deal. The world is not PC all the time. A FICTIONAL play and a teddy bear are not rallying against mental patients. The straight jacket is used all the time in various ways, and lets face it they do serve a specific purpose of restraint but I believe the mental patient with a straight jacket image is something made popular through the media. I dont think creativity should be to blame for some stereotyped hospital inmates.  

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by: mistermix @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 14:33:12 PM UTC

I'm afraid I kinda have to agree with Mistermix here. (0.00 / 0)

This may be a moment of misplaced rage.  

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by: Sue Prent @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 16:59:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Creativity? (0.00 / 0)

Since my professional life is devoted largely to representing people who are locked up at the Vermont State Hospital, some of whom are forcibly held down and drugged, I hope I can be excused if I just don't see the humor in it.

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by: Jack McCullough @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:53:29 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Vermont Mental Health (0.00 / 0)

Couple the chaotic state of Vermont's mental health system and the lack of any clear direction for the future, and a teddy bear may soon be the best we can offer mentally ill Vermonters.  

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by: HSTGonzo @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 18:01:44 PM UTC

Well... (0.00 / 0)

Not being the most sensitive of people, I'm not gonna chime in on the "offensive vs. too sensitive" thing, but at least the VT Commons people did get the "nuts" part right. As in batshit insane.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 22:06:40 PM UTC

Oh... (0.00 / 0)

and expect another whiny post at VC from Rob Williams about how we were mean to him again. Seems par for the course with him, nowadays. I mean, cuz we just made up all this SVR/racist stuff, right?

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 22:08:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

*sigh* (0.00 / 0)

As egoically comforting it might be to write off the secession movement as a cult of closet conspiratorial racists, that's not actually reflective of reality. Thomas Naylor is not a racist; he may be abrasive at times when riled up, and from the tales I've heard on GMD he might've gone overboard in his response to the attempts to label him as a racist, but it's important to differentiate a personal grudge from ascribing a system of belief to someone.  Take the time to get to know him, and the fact that he's not a white supremacist becomes abundantly clear.

Honestly, I'd like to see a real discussion which might help actually resolve this lingering bitterness.  One option is to continue firing virtual potshots from blogs which ends in each side subtly undermining the humanity of the other until it gets to the point where people who would likely be politically allied more often than not go around calling each other "batshit insane".  Such a dynamic might feel good in the short-run by feeding on an in-group out-group dynamic, but it's hobbling the ability of VT radicals to effectively join together on vital issues like opposing the war and VY.

The other option would be to lay out the grievances in a measured, mature way (sans ego-gratifying snark) so they can be examined, commented upon, debated civilly, and a potential resolution might be arrived at.  Such a healing process would require both the GMD and Independence Movement camps to agree to treat each other with respect, which I know would be a tall order (for my side as well...the bitterness flows both ways and runs pretty deep at this point), but I'm of the opinion that it'd be worth it in the long run.  Is there interest in such an attempt, or would it be more meaningful (and fun) for people to keep the flame war going ;)?

http://www.asrblog.com

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by: carbonpenguin @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 01:41:02 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's actually been done before (0.00 / 0)

For instance, here's a link to an extended debate, largely civil and substantive on the issue:

http://www.greenmountaindaily....

For my part, I'm pretty much now where I was a couple of years ago:

[W]hen I think about what I dislike the most about SVR it's a tie between how happy they are to cozy up with the League of the South, White Citizens' Council types and how eager they were to harass John Odum, smear him, try to get him fired from his job, and try to silence him and any other critics they could.

You may be right that Naylor isn't personally a racist, but his actions in cozying up to avowedly racist individuals and organizations demonstrate that he doesn't seem to have any serious objections to racists and their cause. And in a particularly strange convolution of the English language, he calls the Southern Poverty Law Center a hate group.

And for more information than anyone could possibly want on the subject, the authoritative source is always Vermont Secession: http://www.vermontsecession.bl...

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by: Jack McCullough @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 03:51:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

strawman repetition (4.00 / 1)

The original objections on this site were always over the partnerships with racists. Everyone was very careful not to call Naylor or Rob Williams racist. There were no "grievances," there was a profound difference in morality, as most clearly exemplified by Williams' "its none of my damn business" (if his compatriots are racist) comment.

When Naylor lost his mind on me personally and the harassment began, personal judgments increased. By the time he had ramped up those connections, going so far as to appear on a white supremacist radio show, plenty of people decided that he must be a racist. I still haven't said one way or the other. I'm not going to get into that. I'm going to call out specific lines that I think are racist - such as Carol Moore's embracing of the concept of, as she calls them, "homogeneous communities" in an independent Vermont on the VT Commons blog.

As far as I go, the only recent "potshot" I took was a symptom of my increasing frustration with the years-long harassments at my work place from Naylor, and the periodic gratuitous insults offered by Williams. I'll admit that my patience at being their punching bag is wearing mightily thin. I'm wondering if its getting to be time to pull out the bigger media guns than simply GMD.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 04:29:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Carol Moore (0.00 / 0)

also believes that sunspots affect political situations on earth.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 18:01:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No.. (4.00 / 1)

As egoically comforting it might be to write off the secession movement as a cult of closet conspiratorial racists, that's not actually reflective of reality.

"Egoically comforting"? Nah. Just easy, as the facts themselves speak volumes. AS to the civility? Fuck that. They're in bed with the wrong people and okay with that. I'm not interested in treating LaRouche supporters or Tea Partiers with any more "respect" than the intellectual vacuousness and dishonesty of their "arguments" deserve.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 18:00:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

lol (0.00 / 0)

I think by terming it "offensive vs. too sensitive" you just did chime in.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 22:09:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Perhaps (0.00 / 0)

But you know me, I don't offend easily. A blessing or a curse, depending on how you look at it.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 at 18:03:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

We seem to have gotten away from... (4.00 / 2)

...a significant issue raised by the original post.

The arts often have a transgressive quality. The shock of "tasteless" art may promote insight and change or may just be gross, but the RIGHT to make tasteless art is a prime value.  The right to make BAD art ("Let the eagle soar,") is a prime value. It's also a prime value to be able to say that you don't approve of an artistic venture that you feel exploits and stigmatizes people's sufferings.

If I understood the original post correctly, the real issues surrounding the Vermont State Hospital and the real people who are patients there are going to become fodder for a MUSICAL COMEDY designed to promote a political POV.  Or, even more bizarrely, reference to those real issues will be replaced by stereotypes and caricatures...in order to promote a political POV.  It's difficult to imagine that a musical comedy could deal with any of this in anything other than a superficial and tasteless way. It's even more difficult to imagine that using VSH as a vehicle for SVCR can produce insight or even make a valid point.

The "escape from the asylum" plot line usually caricatures and stereotypes human beings who suffer from illnesses difficult to treat.  Humor can be a great way to bust open society's bad behavior, but it's a sharp tool that cuts many ways, and it's hard to see this plot line doing anything positive for people already experiencing dismissive, stigmatizing responses from our society.

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by: MadamPince @ Thu Mar 11, 2010 at 00:20:33 AM UTC

Please don't mischaracterize people's positions (0.00 / 0)

John Odum quotes that I mention "homogeneous communities." He doesn't mention the context - an article against sectarianism where I basically say tolerate but don't promote such communities - per the below. Having lived in mostly minority white communities the last forty years, and preferring it, I have a problem with people who live in majority white communities accusing me of racism, if only by innuendo. (As for the effect of sunspots on human activity, nah, the sudden rise in solar activity has nothing to do with the massive uprisings across the Arab world. It's just... it's just... oh, it's just something!!!

From: Secession and Sectarianism
http://www.vtcommons.org/blog/2008/02/12/secede-survive-secession-and-sectarianism
"The declarations of intent of the most sectarian secessionists frighten people into believing all secessionists have extremist political, economic or cultural views they intend to impose on everyone else. That's why wise secessionists, and the various networks and organizations they create, should stress their goal is giving people choice, including, but not limited to, creating homogeneous communities. We do not want to give the impression our goal is to replace today's many diverse and multi-cultural communities with a "diversity" of homogeneous ones when it is not. Diversity is what makes people and cultures stronger."

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by: CarolMoore @ Sun Feb 27, 2011 at 15:29:46 PM UTC