Lowe's a No-go in St. Albans

Human impact is very real (4.00 / 2)

From a construction perspective, let's not overlook what's happened on the last two Lowe's projects in Essex and South Burlington.  On both occasions, Lowe's hired out-of-state general contractors, as well as a mixture of local and non-local subcontractors.  Also on both occasions, two out-of-state subcontractors were caught exploiting undocumented workers.  The first, in South Burlington, was Double A Construction (based in the Carolinas).  The second, in Essex, was Kal-Vin Drywall (also does business under several other names; based in New Hampshire).  

To my knowledge, neither Double A nor Kal-Vin were investigated or punished for breaking the law.  Our United States Attorney, Attorney General and the Chittenden County State's Attorney were well aware of the cases, but seemingly chose to ignore them.  In all fairness, the fine for exploiting undocumented workers in Vermont is very low, but that still doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to blatant exploitation.  The Vermont Department of Banking, Insurance, Securities and Health Care Administration did, however, fine Double A for misclassifying workers on the South Burlington job.  Unfortunately, the laborers paid the ultimate price - deportation - while the businesses were unscathed.

National "big box" retailers often utilize contractors who are not from the state they're building in.  This is not beneficial to the local construction economy.  Non-union, out-of-state contractors typically bring employees from their home state with them, or - even worse - import workers from outside the USA.  If, as they claim, chain retailers are so good for the community, why aren't they starting off on the right foot by employing responsible, law-abiding, local contractors who leverage Vermont's workforce to build their stores?  I haven't heard this issue included with concerns about the environment, impact on downtowns, increased traffic, stormwater runoff, etc.  It should be.  

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by: ml @ Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 16:53:45 PM UTC

An excellent point. (0.00 / 0)

We do frequently overlook this argument as we focus primarily on the arguments that must ultimately be made in the Act 250 process, which sadly doesn't even consider this aspect of impacts.  The human impact on labor is profound at every stage of these projects.  Thank you for highlighting this significant issue!

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by: Sue Prent @ Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 20:30:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

this is (0.00 / 0)

a very good example of two problems / shortcomings in the Act 250 process

1.  at present, the law does not require consideration of this (or related issues) - only the impacts on traffic & municipal services (although housing impacts have made their way into some of the cases)
2.  even if developers were required to present such testimony, the Act 250 Commission must base its decision only on the data submitted by the parties; in most cases, this means data from the developer's own consultants

it is rare that outside parties have the resources to pay consultants not under the thumb of the developers

to me, this is a fatal flaw; commissioners have no resources or authority to commission truly independent analyses of any key issues (let alone the labor impacts); great way to make important decisions with long-term impacts

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Mon Dec 28, 2009 at 20:51:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Unless I am mistaken (0.00 / 0)

one of the features of Ginnie Lyon's proposed improvement to Act 250 would be to provide just such resources for independent analysis.

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by: Sue Prent @ Tue Dec 29, 2009 at 00:13:43 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Another one bites the dust (0.00 / 0)

What a relief! I sure hate convenience being a new homeowner and all in St.Albans. Glad there will be that empty field to gaze at rather than a place to buy goods to improve my home. Sarcasm aside I really must beg the question of what the best use of the areas resource really should be? I see this constantly stating it is "not the best use of the area". Then what is? Is it to be left as a field for eternity? I see an incredible amount of opposition for any new project that isn't a small, local business but no new fresh ideas on how to help the ailing town of St.Albans. Coddle local business' all you like but it will not stop people from going to Essex or Burlington Lowes to get what they need. I want to see this "smart growth" and the sooner the better because right now it seems more like "stubborn arguments".

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by: mistermix @ Wed Dec 30, 2009 at 22:20:51 PM UTC

Not every piece of land... (0.00 / 0)

...needs to be filled with commercial opportunities and not every vacant lot is a sufficient excuse for someone to come in from out of town and move our consumer dollars away from our state.

But, perhaps, you could tell us how a Lowe's would help St. Albans.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Wed Dec 30, 2009 at 23:49:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Welcome to the neighborhood, Mistermix! (3.00 / 1)

I'm glad you want to get involved in helping St. Albans succeed.  You'll find lost of opportunities to share your ideas at community forums etc. You might also take the time to visit some of the MANY local merchants who sell the same sort of merchandise that Lowe's would carry.  Many of us local folks do in fact find much of what we need right here in the community; and we think the tradeoff in support from our local businesses for community programs and for other local business more than offsets any disadvantage their pricing may sometimes have.  In fact, we do not find much of an overall discrepancy when loss-leader items are eliminated from the mix.  Owning and operating a working studio in Franklin County, we have plenty of use for the type of items one might find at Lowe's or Home Depot.  When Home Depot first opened in Williston, having a list of widely assorted but rather specific studio needs, I decided to make a trip to the new store and see if I could get everything we needed in one easy location.  I didn't find ANY of the things I was looking for.  They had drop-sheets, but not of the heavy weight we needed.  They had nuts and bolts and washers, but not the specific size I needed in one case; and only in blister packs (rather than much cheaper full boxes we regularly get locally) in another case.  This was years ago, so I don't remember the other half-dozen items, just that I didn't find anything that I was looking for at Home Depot.  On my way home I stopped at an Ace Hardware somewhere in Burlington and found some of the things I was looking for; but I finally picked-up the remaining items once I was back in St.Albans visiting our regular stores. Those big box retailers will only carry the fastest selling inventory of any one type because their focus is on bulk buying and fast overturn.  Not a very useful model for anyone who needs personalized service or depth of choice.  

Now, as to your question about what is the best use of land; the answer is: that all depends upon the kind and location of land in question.  Any use that  makes prime ag soil permanently unusable as such is a poor use for that land.  Not all farmland is classed as "prime agricultural soil," the richest and most productive for farming.Ask the Northwest Regional Planning Commission sometime to show you the map that indicates where prime ag soil concentrations are located in Vermont and you will see that the area around St. Albans Bay is one of only two concentrations in the State.  You'll see little bits of it here and there but the majority of prime ag soils are located in tracts that are unfarmable by virtue of the small size of the parcels(as for instance in people's yards).  As a great many people are beginning to realize, it is important to preserve our ability to feed populations locally.  We may not always be able to depend on long-distance hauling of our food from places like California and Chile.  There are other issues of nutrition and food security that make it just good sense to preserve our ability to feed our community locally.  Turning a prime ag field into a sea of concrete permanently takes that land out of potential productivity.  You may see the arguments against big box sprawl as "stubborn," but we see them as far-sighted and proactive.

The short answer to your question as to whether or not the local opponents to this kind of irresponsible development have an idea for a better use for the land in question is "yes;" but I think I have taken up as much of this forum as is appropriate at this time.

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by: Sue Prent @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 01:55:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Is this an argument for or against? (0.00 / 0)

"When loss leader items are eliminated from the mix".  So, they sell the items most people need most, cheapest?  Sounds like a victory for the working man.  

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 05:46:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

except (2.50 / 2)

for all the men and women who are no longer working because their jobs were sent to China in order to feed WalMart, Home Depot, and the rest

but hey, if the rest of us can save a buck, who cares about our neighbors

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 12:22:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm more concerned (4.00 / 1)

with my neighbors having to spend their hard earned dollars paying artificially high prices for common necessities in order to support non-competitive businesses in the name of preserving some transplant's idea of how Vermont "should be".
If you want to stop all new development then sign me up, let's adopt Fairfield's model for construction: if you want to build you need an existing cellar hole.  But this is more a discussion of what businesses have a positive moral value and which have a negative.  In that regard I believe the positive lies with the side that provides the best quality at the lowest price to the local community.    

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 20:08:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're talking about "price" (2.00 / 1)

but the sticker price of something is not the cost of it.  We often bear costs for things in our neighborhood that are not reflected in the sticker price.  If all you care is the amount of cash that has to be exchanged for the immediate purchase, you're not interested in the price of something at all.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 20:27:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes, price. (0.00 / 0)

Of course the sticker price is the cost, are you paid in dollars or ambiance and good wishes? Personal opinions as to how an item is made, where it is sold, etc. are irrelevant to the question of whether it is a good value or not.  And as opinions tend to do, the determination of whatever extra "value" an item may have because it was sold in a locally owned business, has a fashionable label, is fair trade certified, is cruelty free, etc. etc. varies considerably from person to person.  It is up to the individual to determine whether that level of added value is worth the increased actual cost and if their pocketbook is capable of supporting it.  

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 21:29:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

the sticker price (0.00 / 0)

is most certainly NOT the real price; it may be what we pay at the register but it is not the full accounting

you may choose to ignore the real costs but these are not subjective matters; they are easily quantified; focusing on "opinions" about added value for local products conveniently ignores the added costs of business as usual; the facts about many imported (basic) goods do not vary based on one's views; that's how they get to be facts

to suggest that externalities are not real costs is absurd

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 21:42:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

your (0.00 / 0)

view of market prices does not comport with the real world

what is an "arificially high price"? could it be one that ignores economic, environmental, and social externalities?

I'm tired of hearing about low-low prices that have nothing to do with the real costs of goods

as for "non-competitive businesses", it's pretty tough to compete with firms like Wal-Mart that benefit from countless direct subsidies and tax dodges (very well documented)

and the (also tired) line about stopping all new development has no basis in fact but sure makes for a snappy sound bite

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 20:35:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I also find it interesting (0.00 / 0)

that you refer to those who oppose the project as "transplants."  Why do you make that assumption? The people opposing this particular land mis-use are comprised of roughly as many native Franklin County residents as people who have moved here from other counties or from out of state.  In contrast, the people proposing this land mis-use don't live anywhere near here and represent huge global corporations!  I guess I would qualify as a "transplant" even though I have lived in the same house for the past 26 years!  How about you?

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by: Sue Prent @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 21:19:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I beg your pardon? (0.00 / 0)

Did you actually say "...This is more a discussion of what businesses have a positive MORAL value..." and that you believe "the positive lies with the side that provides the best quality at the lowest price?"  Is that really what your reading of "morality" is?  If so, we don't have any common ground on which to continue this conversation.

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by: Sue Prent @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 22:13:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes (1.00 / 1)

Yes, that is what I wrote, though without the capitalization.
Yes, I believe that providing good value to the community is a moral act.  In the converse, I also believe manipulating the commercial environment in order to force a particular set of views on cash strapped families is an immoral act.
Yes, we have little to no common ground.

As to your previous question, I actually grew up in Barre, though between the house on Ferris Street and our farm in Fairfield my family has been there since the mid-1840's.  My grandfather, Walter Regan, was your state rep when you began your visit.

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 22:26:20 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Honey, I don't really care (1.00 / 1)

if your ancestors came over on the Mayflower and hopped the first pony to Vermont; but if you like that game, my great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather is the first person buried in the Jericho cemetery, long before your family began their own "visit."

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by: Sue Prent @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 22:51:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

My mistake (1.00 / 1)

You asked, which implied you cared.  Perhaps you shouldn't have asked then.

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 23:10:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not a pissing contest (0.00 / 0)

Regardless of playing the "my dad can beat up your dad" or in this case "im the REAL Vermonter around here" the discussion I agree with the fact that the business providing best value at the lowest price is in fact helping the community. In other words I dont have to get a second job to afford some lumber and nails.

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by: mistermix @ Sat Jan 02, 2010 at 23:58:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That is exactly right. (0.00 / 0)

It isn't a "pissing contest."  In other words, the REAL Vermonter is anyone who lives here and cares enough to actively participate in his or her community.  You will notice that I do not play the "ratings" game either (you slap me, I slap you, etc.)  I understand that you genuinely believe that lowest pricing represents the most value to the community, but I urge you to consider all of the arguments to the contrary that have been offered here. I would also like to recommend an excellent book which will give you far more perspective on the  discussion than there is time for here.  It is "The Big Box Swindle" by Stacey Mitchell.  I am sure that you can borrow the copy that I gave to the St. Albans Town Development Review Board, or the one that I gave to the St. Albans City Manager.    

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by: Sue Prent @ Sun Jan 03, 2010 at 15:23:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That is not what "loss leaders" are. (0.00 / 0)

Generally speaking, "loss-leaders" are single choices in a range of categories that are priced at low or no profit to draw buyers into the store.  Those loss leaders tend to be more cheaply constructed products that are not really what people are looking for, but they come into the store to have a look and are drawn toward the higher-priced items in that category.  These "loss leaders"are also used to skew public perceptions that the retailer is overall cheaper than it really is.  Take those Walmart commercials that claim a family saves X amount of dollars a year shopping at Walmart.  Those claims are extrapolated from a cart full of loss-leaders...much of which that family very likely would not choose to buy.

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by: Sue Prent @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 14:09:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Heh... (0.00 / 0)

You expressing genuine concern for "the working man" is like me expressing genuine concern for Rush Limbaugh's hospitalization.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 16:46:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Heh (0.00 / 0)

How could I not have genuine concern for the working man, I am one.  I will admit to having zero concern, however, with those who believe the world owes them a living.

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 20:09:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

you mean (0.00 / 0)

like Wal-Mart shareholders?

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 20:36:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't know (0.00 / 0)

Never met one.  Though I envy their investment savvy.

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by: patrick cashman @ Thu Dec 31, 2009 at 21:53:16 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

An answer (0.00 / 0)

Although I respect your limiting your own reply I still did not receive the answer I was looking for. What is the fabled "smart growth" I keep hearing about? This is the direct question I would like answered. Im not looking for a direct vision into the future, but simply a few thoughts on this smart growth. You of all people should be able to answer this since it came from your text and you are very active in the NRPC. I continually hear the negatives of any big box store moving into the area and how "devastated" local business' would be. I do find it funny how you mention Home Depot not having the items you were looking for and instead found them at Ace Hardware. Is it possible these types of scenario's could play out often even with a Lowes in the area and keep local business afloat?

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by: mistermix @ Sat Jan 02, 2010 at 23:50:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Okay, I'll do the best I can to give a brief answer to your questions. (0.00 / 0)

In another response, I recommended a book that you can read which will explain much of what can be said about what doesn't represent "smart growt." For each community, "smart growth" opportunities will look different.  In the case of St. Albans those opportunities would involve locating retail of an appropriate size (not big boxes)on previously developed land within the urban center.  Have a look at the wasteland between Main St. and just before Walnut St. on Lake St. and you will see tons of underutilized land.  Preserving ag soils could take many directions, including working truck-farms producing small crops of specialty produce, community gardens and compost, ag. extension educational facilities, recreational trails etc.  The possibilities are only limited by imagination. Smart growth brings new, high quality jobs to a community without displacing existing jobs.  Smart growth preserves the natural resources peculiar to that community and its surroundings.  Smart growth supports the cultural character of the community, providing gathering places and walking opportunities so that community members can meet and interact informally as they go about the ordinary activities that take place in a functional downtown.

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by: Sue Prent @ Sun Jan 03, 2010 at 15:58:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you (0.00 / 0)

Your explanation of smart growth in the community was informative and explanatory. While I may not agree with how big box stores are being pushed away from the community and labeled "evil" I do respect the reasoning behind the argument. I feel the community could benefit from a department store/home improvement store in some manner.

When Ames was located in the town I recall my mother taking us there (we lived in Cambridge) and shopping at not just Ames but many stores in the area. Ames is what brought us to town but was not the only stop. I believe a destination provides a reason for people to come to town and would encourage further shopping in the area at other retailers. In my opinion creating a destination for people to shop would only help the town and promote new business. What is here now is not enough, the downtown is not encouraging people from other areas to visit. What used to be a place of commerce for many areas is now something only locals care to visit. Im not saying what is here now is bad but its not enough. For instance my family from other areas no longer visit the town for shopping as they once did.

While im sure my argument for new stores will be shrugged off and perceived as greedy and closed-minded I am a new homeowner in the area and my views are not completely mine alone. Many young homeowners and renters in the area I speak to are in agreeance. We all cant be completely wrong.

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by: mistermix @ Sun Jan 03, 2010 at 17:08:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Whether other people agree with you or not... (0.00 / 0)

...is not a valid measurement of the quality of your argument.  You can find any number of people to agree with a great many absolutely absurd propositions.

There are good arguments for bringing a variety of stores into an area which is suffering from a poor economy.  There are, however, some important considerations when it comes to whether or not the store will provide any value to the community.  One is how much money it draws into the community.  If the chain has a history of hiring contractors from outside the area and pulling money out rather than bringing it in, then there's little value to having such a chain in your community.

If the store is located on the edge of town in such a fashion as to make it unlikely that those who come to it will explore other parts of the town, you once again have to question the value of bringing a store in to that location.  If, however, you want to bring a store into an area which will feed into other businesses in its vicinity and encourage people to shop other outlets in the area, there is potential for benefit.

If the store in question wants to build a completely new facility, there is question as to whether or not it is of value to do so when there are unused facilities in other parts of town that could be easily modified to suit the store's purposes.  Taking an open field and converting it into a box store could have a great deal of negative impact.  Taking an old building and renovating it could provide a net positive.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Sun Jan 03, 2010 at 17:27:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree that we could use a proper department store. (0.00 / 0)

I think we're pretty well fixed in the hardware and lumber department.  One can always find cheaper options elsewhere, but having maintained a crumbling old house and functioning studio business for more than a couple of decades now on primarily local materials, I can't agree that we NEED anything like Lowe's locally.

I know that there has been an attempt to engage Walmart in discussion about locating a much smaller store downtown and have heard that this proposal has met with some interest from the corporate giant.  However, so long as this monolithic proposal on the outskirts remains on the table, Walmart will not seriously consider an alternative; nor will any other general merchandiser entertain the idea of locating in our community. What retailer other than a big box store would even consider locating in a tiny town like this with a Walmart superstore poised for entry?  By the way, Walmart killed Ames by siphoning off so much business throughout New England that even Ames was no longer profitable to operate.  

If you are feeling sorry for the land-owner; don't. The devleoper bought the land AFTER a somewhat smaller Walmart proposal had been rejected for the exact same site because of it's potential negative impact on the local economy.

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by: Sue Prent @ Sun Jan 03, 2010 at 17:56:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]