Good... (4.00 / 1)

Let's hope they nail this guy to the wall and make an example out of him.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 at 15:15:57 PM UTC

Well ya beat me to it, Jack. (0.00 / 0)

I was just coming here to post on this.
How to put this...I commend Mr. Downs on his restraint, and I'll leave it at that.
I saw that in this morning's paper and my eyes about popped out of my head onto the page.
That kind of shit is one reason I knew I couldn't raise my kids in the South.
I DAMN sure ain't gonna put up with it here.

Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 at 15:43:58 PM UTC

Another piece is ridicule (4.00 / 3)

According to the report I saw on WPTZ last night, another piece of the small-town religio-fanatical judgementalism in the Irasburg school is that the teacher "retaliated by singling students [whose parents objected] out and encouraging others to belittle them."

A shameful betrayal of the separation of state and religion and of the very core of democracy. There was a public school board meeting, and if I remember correctly, the vast majority of the parents supported the teacher and saw nothing wrong with what he was doing.

NanuqFC
In a Time of Universal Deceit, TELLING the TRUTH Is a Revolutionary Act. - George Orwell

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by: NanuqFC @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 at 16:40:22 PM UTC

Seriously (4.00 / 6)

if a single kid in that class is harmed in any way over this, they need to arrest that teacher for aiding and abetting battery.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 at 21:21:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Holy crap. (4.00 / 2)

That any parent would support this teacher alarms me. He should be banned from teaching in public schools. How dare he.

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by: annikee @ Wed Feb 11, 2009 at 05:47:20 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Kudos (4.00 / 5)

Bravo from an nontheist to these brave parents.

---

by: sailor_titan @ Tue Feb 10, 2009 at 19:39:54 PM UTC

Introspection (1.50 / 2)

Jack, your post has inspired some introspection on my part.  I worry for both the teacher and the parents.  And especially the kids.  I'm thinking: Those of us who have been well taught to question authority, have we been properly taught to question ourselves?  That goes for both parties and all of us.  In a sense, I've been where this teacher is, maybe trying too hard to change the world instead of just trying to be a better teacher.

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by: hierc @ Wed Feb 11, 2009 at 12:25:20 PM UTC

Curtis (4.00 / 2)

please explain why the parents challenging the teacher need to question themselves

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by: Doug Hoffer @ Thu Feb 12, 2009 at 01:14:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hi Doug. (0.00 / 0)

It's nice to have you on another topic besides tax policy.  Cuz you'd kick the crap out of me on that.

I'd suggest reading a lot into what I didn't say.  I didn't say they were wrong.  However, who among us should ever stop questioning ourselves?  I questioned myself a lot after unnecessarily making a member of GMD very angry last week.  What I did was stupid.

We tend to idolize John and Mary Beth Tinker, much as journalists idolize Woodward and Bernstein.  The cause for both, I'd say, was righteous and pure.  Not sure about the Irasburg parents.

I have many more questions than answers about Irasburg, not being there and only reading a couple of news accounts.  Is a lawsuit what's best for the plaintiff's children?  Or is there so much stress at home that it's difficult for them to cope? Is there even a dinner table that the family enjoys together, or are they too busy worrying that someone somewhere might see a religious site? How's the stress level at school?  Are the children learning something valuable?  Or are they learning how adults can't get along?

I've done the lawsuit thing.  It's not fun.  To paraphrase Jeannette Rankin's quote about war, you can no more win a lawsuit than you can win an earthquake.

Maybe the parents are right.  Completely right.  But how will they know and continue to know if they don't question themselves?

---

by: BBOW @ Thu Feb 12, 2009 at 10:41:56 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I should ask a clarifying question (4.00 / 2)

This teacher promoted some students in his class to ridicule others, and you are worried about whether or not the parents are doing the right thing?


Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Thu Feb 12, 2009 at 10:56:51 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What else could you do as a parent but question yourself? (4.00 / 14)

That is what we have done, this decision did not come easily.  We are protecting the rights of our children and did not receive the support which we or our children should have.  This is the bare bones to the whole issue.  We live in an area where we are, apparently, the minority.  We want our children to learn about academics in school, we are trying to give them the ideals to make their decisions about religion when they feel ready to.  We are not without morals and the concept of what makes a person good, nor are we neglecting to teach our children such things.  We just
do not go along blindly and think that just because someone has authority they are always doing the right thing.

---

by: anniec @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 04:42:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thank you so much... (4.00 / 1)

...for posting here.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

---

by: JulieWaters @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 10:36:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ditto what Julie said. (0.00 / 2)

Thank you for sharing that in response to what I said.  Minorities tend to want to create a balance.  Republicans in Vermont.  Democrats in Republican counties in Vermont.  Democrats have just succeeded nationally.  Minorities of all walks seek to create a balance.  And that's why Republicans will come back stronger in 2012.

I know that's not the topic of your comment, anniec, but it's the thoughts your comment has inspired in me, in this, an increasingly post-partisan society.  Someday maybe we'll be post-separation-of-church-and-state.

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by: BBOW @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 12:12:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What does that mean? (4.00 / 4)

"Post-separation-of-church-and-state"?

You mean like they have in Iran?

What people who complain about "taking God out of the schools" don't seem to grasp is that the issue is whether the government will be allowed to indoctrinate people in religion. How could anyone think that is acceptable?

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by: Jack McCullough @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 12:18:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's a good point. (0.00 / 0)

Jack, if I thought we were close to being Iran, I wouldn't want to be post-sepration-of-church-and-state.  In fact, we wouldn't be.  Separation of church and state would be very much an issue.  Just as a racist country can't be post-racial.  And post racial doesn't mean ignore race, by the way.  It doesn't mean not to be on guard and be aware.  And be sensitive to all the victims of Katrina.  It means get over our urge to get carried away like it's the only issue.  The issue with Katrina was largely complacency and incompetence.  

That's why Obama is my president, not Sharpton.

The good in the parent contributing to this post was that it started an interesting discussion.  And Joseph Joubert said that it is better to debate a question without resloving it than to resolve a question without debating it.

---

by: hierc @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 13:28:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Trust you (3.75 / 4)

to taint this person's post on her family's struggle with partisanship.
You're a real piece of work, Hier.

I know that's not the topic of your comment, anniec

Then stay on topic and stop hijacking the thread with your crap.

Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 12:56:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Welcome to GMD, Annie. (4.00 / 4)

And once again, thank you for the post.
I'm up the road from you, in St. J., and my wife and I have been following this closely. You have our unquestioned support in this. We lived in semi-rural Virginia for a couple of years so we know what it is like to have to defend our children from proselytization. This one hit very close to home for us.

Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 13:02:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What kind of Palinesque nonsense are you spewing now, Curtis? (4.00 / 3)

The only thing the parents should be questioning themselves is why they didn't get rid of this theocratic asshole sooner.

You 'worry for the teacher"? What the hell for? He's wrong.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 14:47:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here's What I've Noticed. (1.00 / 1)

I've noticed that the empathetic comment toward the family got 11 ratings of four.  The ones attacking me got usually, like, one.  

Post-partisan means being able to focus on things you've never focused on before.  Almost like getting religion.

I didn't vote for Obama.  Yet I see his genius. Post-partisan is HIS genius.  Not to rest on his post-racial accomplishment. I was wrong to not vote for Obama.  He is the better man for our country right now.  It's time to heal.  

In 2012, who knows?

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by: hierc @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 19:54:02 PM UTC

The "empathetic comment" (4.00 / 1)

was from a MEMBER of the family that graced us by posting here.
But never mind that. Please continue not letting facts get in the way of your bullshit.

Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Fri Feb 13, 2009 at 22:18:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And don't forget.. (3.40 / 5)

that many of us on here never bought into this post partisan bullshit, either. It's hard to be post-partisan when one side is criminally insane.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 00:49:30 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

LMAO, JD! n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: annikee @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 04:17:27 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

From the ratings... (0.00 / 2)

I now see what a troll is.  Someone who challenges your thinking.  Here's the danger in hard thinking.  It inevitably leads you to God.  A scary place, given that our view of religion tends to be that of zealots.  Zealots, after all, are who the noisy religious people are.  The quiet contemplative ones, like the Dalai Lama, those are the ones Christians should learn from.  The rest of us?  Throw out Bill Maher.  He doesn't get it.  He doesn't want to mock religion.  He just wants to mock people.

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by: BBOW @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 15:18:32 PM UTC

hard thinking (3.75 / 4)

"inevitably leads you to God"

what the hell are you talking about?

this post was about a fundamental issue: the right of children to be free from religious indoctrination in the public schools

yet you have somehow tried to make it about you; in truth, some of your comments in this series have been curious at best and downright wacko at worst

you want the parents to question themselves? they are courageous in my view

you talk about post partisanship; what exctly is that and what does it have to do with violations of the constitution?

you alluded to Tinker vs Des Moines but I fail to see the connection to these circumstances for they are entirely different issues

you implied that the parents are not "righteous and pure"; since when is upholding the constitution (and protecting your kids from zealots) not righteous & pure? and who are you to impugn their motives?

I'm not at all opposed to those who challenge my thinking; but what you've put out here is not coherent

you are free to think, speak, and even proselytize; but neither you nor any other public school teacher may proselytize in the classroom; period

---

by: Doug Hoffer @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 16:18:22 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Huh? (4.00 / 3)

"Hard thinking" "inevitably leads you to god?" Is that because its so hard you eventually get worn out?

I respect religious people - and certainly there's a robust history of religious people who are "hard thinkers," but that is a statement so silly that its probably not worth responding to.

Whether its true or not, religion takes care of a lot of the thinking for you. Things that don't make sense? They're just holy mysteries beyond our understanding. Don't worry about it. Not sure what the right thing to do is in a given situation? Don't worry about it - its all worked out with a prescribed moral code. Not sure where the universe came from? That's covered.

I'm not going to say that religion as a whole or any particular religion is right or wrong about everything. Anything's possible, after all, and I'm just one guy.

But what I will say is that your assertion is beyond ridiculous, and is the second thing you have said (after your moral approval of torture) that makes me concerned that you're a school teacher. I fear for the truly "hard thinkers" in your class.

Nullius perfectus est

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by: odum @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 16:29:13 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You are very wise, John Odum. (0.50 / 2)

That's why you are a successful blogger.  Bring the others along. A good editor does that.

I'm glad you pointed out that I'm a teacher.  It is indeed something to watch if a teacher gets carried away with religion.  The Irasburg guy has, because he has a hole somewhere in his life.  Your instincts are good to watch him.

Howard Dean's lack of religion, or lack of the ability to talk about religion, came out in his "scream." There's a deep, deep psychology to religion. But psychologists with no religion don't get it and see it as an "opiate" or something merely to cling to.  Religious scholars with no psychology background can become dangerous zealots.  All religions that teach the balanced life teach that.

I'm always more in teacher mode than Christian mode, by the way.  I view all people as students.  Or potential students (if I get smart enough.)  I view liberals that way, conservatives that way, Vermont Tiger readers that way, even the Governor.  Right now, Vermont Tiger is in the time out room.  I'm at odds with them.  At times, GMD has been. Someday, if I get smart enough, big sites and big politicians will become my students.  And I will teach the balanced life.

What I do best is teach.  I let the preaching be done by the really great preachers.    

Now, ask me what two years of screaming about unions, etc, was all about.

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by: BBOW @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 16:52:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

(shakes head) (4.00 / 1)

Howard Dean's lack of religion, or lack of the ability to talk about religion, came out in his "scream."

Dude, it ain't EVEN 4:20 yet. What in HELL are you smoking?

Congratulations. That's just so far over the top its nose is bleeding.

ask me what two years of screaming about unions, etc, was all about.

Oh, I don't think I need to. You make an armchair diagnosis irresistably easy.


Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 16:58:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Say WHAT? (0.00 / 0)

Bring the others along. A good editor does that.

Hier, he's doing anything BUT "bringing me along."

If you know what I mean.


Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 17:08:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

VT Tiger.. (3.67 / 3)

is the "time out" room, only because it's a punishment to have to even read it.

"Hard thinking" leads to God? Um, actually, no, it's usually the other way around. The more I know about religion, the more I'm glad I'm an atheist.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 18:28:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

WAIT a minute. (4.00 / 4)

"Hard thinking" leads me to the conclusion that virgins do not have children and executed political prisoners do not rise from the dead because I am a bad person.
"Hard thinking" leads me to believe that nobody loaded two of every species onto a wooden boat.
However, the thinking that leads me to believe that if you were MY kids' teacher, I'd pull them out of that class so fast it'd make your head spin?
Not so hard.

I now see what a troll is.  Someone who challenges your thinking.

You're not challenging my thinking. That's just it. You're challenging me NOT to think.

The gods offer no rewards for intellect. There was never one yet that showed any interest in it.
-- Mark Twain, Notebook

Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 16:47:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Maybe he's right (0.00 / 0)

It is hard thinking it inevitably leads you to God.

Hmm.  

I think I might have misread something.

Musician, Web Designer, Photographer

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by: JulieWaters @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 16:49:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"Hard thinking" (4.00 / 1)

is a new right-wing catchphrase. I've seen it several times now.

I was raised a Christian; I see nothing in the vindictive pompousity of Hier that's Christian. What preacher compared Bill Maher with the Dalai Lama to repeat it here?

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by: annikee @ Mon Feb 16, 2009 at 05:11:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hmm.... (4.00 / 3)

It' s appropriate that it's a new right-wing catchphrase, as real thinking seems to be very hard for those people.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

---

by: JDRyan @ Mon Feb 16, 2009 at 15:46:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I would caution... (0.00 / 2)

Anybody who gets too literal about religion, maybe they should seek deeper meaning.  Will I be committed to hell fire if I'm not full-immersion Baptized?  In a sense, maybe. Baptism in front of a whole congregation in a skimpy robe, trusting a preacher to catch you and not drown you, teaches humility and it teaches you to trust.  Without the ability to do both, one will walk the earth and be remembered for eternity as someone in a private sort of Hell. I wonder how much it gnaws at Howard not to be picked for anything.

Then where does humility take you?  Well, you start realizing there are smarter people.  If you didn't know that, you become more balanced.  You start thinking real hard, can millions of Christians all be wrong?  Perhaps, but questioning one's self, as I started to say many hours ago, is very important.

Last week, I was going to attack you guys in a non-Christian way.  My computer froze up.  I thought better of it.  The computer started working again.  What kind of a person wouldn't, for at least a second, ponder that?

Time for lunch!  The balanced life!

---

by: BBOW @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 17:03:55 PM UTC

Man (4.00 / 2)

sounds to me like you need cleared.
LRH tech. That's what you need.

can millions of Christians all be wrong?  

Oh, absolutely. Just ask millions of Muslims, or Hindus, or Jews, or...Scientologists.........


Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 17:12:11 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Spare me.... (4.00 / 4)

 Last week, I was going to attack you guys in a non-Christian way.  My computer froze up.  I thought better of it.  The computer started working again.  What kind of a person wouldn't, for at least a second, ponder that?

What kind of person? Um, I don't know, someone with a good grasp of "cause and effect" and doesn't impart meaning to the most trivial of coincidences? Curtis, did you know I wasn't thinking about you the other day, and lo and behold, the phone rang, and it wasn't you! What a coincidence! God is great!

It makes perfect sense. Your flagrant disregard of logic and reason in your arguments is most certainly attacking us in a Christian way.

 

You start thinking real hard, can millions of Christians all be wrong?

Can millions of children all be wrong about Santa Claus?You have to think really hard to come to that conclusion, (yes)?  Arguing to popularity? Someone must've been sleeping during debate class. The amount of people who believe something has no bearing on its validity. Did you steal that degree you have?

 

 Baptism in front of a whole congregation in a skimpy robe, trusting a preacher to catch you and not drown you, teaches humility and it teaches you to trust.

Um, no, if anything, it means you have no shame in letting the world know what a sucker you are. I guess that's "humility". Or cluelessness.  

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

---

by: JDRyan @ Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 18:42:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I've enjoyed this and... (0.00 / 0)

I've had my thinking pushed.  And my fortitude.  My faith has been tested by being called names.  I've been threatened to be banned.  I have walked through a certain kind of valley, and yet I've not feared.

I want to impart a question:  Could worship for Bill Maher be mistaken for atheism?

---

by: BBOW @ Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 10:02:43 AM UTC

I want to impart a question: (4.00 / 1)

Who the fuck, exactly, worships Bill Maher as a godlike figure?
And another question:
Exactly when and how did you incur your head injury?

My faith has been tested by being called names.

Other people would retreat into alcohol or dope.
Same difference.

Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change.

---

by: kestrel9000 @ Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 16:40:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This discussion has gotten really, really wierd (4.00 / 2)

It's over at http://ramabahama.net ... only it's still under construction (but so is the rest of my life)

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by: Rama Schneider @ Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 20:17:02 PM UTC

Oh.... (4.00 / 1)

I think it's quite entertaining, really.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. Politics. Godlessness. Music. Films of questionable quality. It's all there, folks.

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by: JDRyan @ Sun Feb 15, 2009 at 22:44:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm Glad It Was bumped Up (0.00 / 0)

I've been missing a whole lot...

"GMD's once proud libertarian-socialist"

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by: wdh3 @ Mon Feb 16, 2009 at 00:37:10 AM UTC

[ Parent ]