Religious indoctrination in our public schools

Ya beat me to it. (3.75 / 4)

I was ready to go with a diary on this, as well. And true to form, the article also describes how Downs' daughter is being harassed at school. That teacher needs to stop or be out on his ass.

You can read more of JD Ryan at five before chaos. But why would you want to?

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by: JDRyan @ Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 23:58:26 PM CST

How hard is it? (4.00 / 3)

. . . I won't think in your church if

You won't preach in my school . .

Mr. Rogers insults the community by treating its children with such contempt. He is pressuring a vulnerable population - entrusted to his care - into  acts of self-degrading worship. His offenses cannot be sugar coated into anything less.

There is little we can do about parents who choose to visit these sins on their kids. However, it is a genuine individual/civil rights obscenity when our community resources our squandered to heap this type of abuse on children.  

This guy needs to be stopped, absolutely. He and the school administration also owe the young student a serious apology and whatever else it takes to correct the damage they have caused her and her family.

If the article is correct (and it would certainly be true to a pattern) the school administration and particularly the principal who effectively dismisses the matter by saying the handout "was not widely distributed," have actively allowed a young child to be victimized. And consider why she is being treated this way: 1. The school has so far swept the teacher's conduct under the rug at her expense, and 2. she is being harassed and stigmatized (again at a vulnerable age while in the care of a state run institution) for refusing to submit to a Chistianist recruiting effort. One person's preaching is more reasonably the creepy predation imposed on another.

The article does not tell me whether the teacher is willing to live by the law and acknowledge the problems he's caused. However, there seems to be a bigger problem with the principal. His actions do not instill confidence given what is occurring in plain site on his watch. If the quotes in the paper are correct and in context, he is either endorsing the behavior by inaction or incapable of understanding it.

sláinte,
cl

-- Religion is like sodomy: both can be harmless when practiced between consenting adults but neither should be imposed upon children.

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by: Caoimhin Laochdha @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 05:21:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I was busy all day yesterday (1.00 / 1)

so I'm glad someone got a diary up about this.  I read about this yesterday morning and I was appalled.  

juliewaters.com

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by: JulieWaters @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 07:13:37 AM CST

WWCS? (1.00 / 1)

What Would Charity Say?

Sorry..... just trying to bait her.

"Why is it a penny for your thoughts but you gotta put your two cents in? Somebody out there is making a penny." -Steven Wright

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by: Brattlerouser @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 08:50:14 AM CST

Oh, (1.00 / 1)

I'm sure she'll chime in or post some nonsense about how we secular types are overreacting to some Christianist conspiracy to take over the world, That's usually her stock response to these kinds of things.

You can read more of JD Ryan at five before chaos. But why would you want to?

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by: JDRyan @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 09:16:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

WWCS?? (3.00 / 1)

Man, I feel like I am committing a sacrilege just by being a part of that acronym.

Actually, contrary to JD's narrow view of all bloggers conservative, I happen to think this teacher is overboard.  Where I would draw the line is no doubt different than most of you folks, but it sounds like this is definitely over that line.

And JD, I would think that you would know me better than that.  You secularists do tend to over-react to any and all things Christian, but in this case, this girl's rights are clearly being violated.

I only hope that you would all rush in to condemn an atheist teacher forcing his beliefs on a Christian student.  (And, no, I don't mean by teaching evolution during science, either.)  

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by: shesright @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 20:04:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well then.... (3.00 / 1)

You proved me wrong. I just said that because just about every other time something like this comes up you gimme the 'Christian conspiracy" shpeil. Point taken.

You can read more of JD Ryan at five before chaos. But why would you want to?

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by: JDRyan @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 21:55:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Freedom (1.00 / 1)

Freedom has limits and right now we battle to see who gets to set those limits. We know it won't be Dennis Kucinich or Fred Thompson. As a "typical con" my limits are different from yours.  

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by: endoftherange @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:10:40 AM CST

I have no idea what you're talking about (3.00 / 1)

What are you talking about?

juliewaters.com

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by: JulieWaters @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 11:24:29 AM CST

[ Parent ]

That's fine... (3.00 / 1)

Recognize, however, they are "your limits' and don't try to impose them on everyone else.

You can read more of JD Ryan at five before chaos. But why would you want to?

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by: JDRyan @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:04:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Teachers need to teach not preach....about anything (0.00 / 0)

My daughter comes home on a regular basis and tells me about the latest discussions her teacher has had with them.  Recently the discussion was Hinduism.  In the past they have covered global warming, evil oil companies, and health care.  Oh yeah, did I mention this is a 1st-2nd grade class?  I expect my child to be learning the three R's, not political theories.  

also it really bothers me that the that you throw out the following statement

It's very clearly unconstitutional, and if it isn't immediately halted they need to be sued.

Bringing in the lawyers when you don't like something goes against everything Vermont stands for.

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by: grumpyvermonter @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:31:58 PM CST

There's a purpose for lawsuits (3.75 / 4)

It's to protect vulnerable people.  It's clear that the school district has been made aware of this problem.  It's also clear that the school has not responded appropriately to these concerns and that the teacher in question is refusing to acknowledge the right of one of his students to refuse interest in his religious propaganda.  

There's also a big difference between teaching about Christianity, Buddhism, Judiasm, etc., in courses about cultural history and using the classroom as a forum to teach Christianity.

juliewaters.com

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by: JulieWaters @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 at 12:41:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A Perspective (3.00 / 1)

As a teacher of 21 years, I saw our school's football team take a weekly walk to the Catholic Church before every game in the Fall for most of those 21 years.  I don't know if they prayed for victory or for not having anyone get seriously injured.  (If the former, it seemed silly to bother before the MSJ game.)

Though voluntary, I can imagine the peer pressure to participate.  I never really liked the idea.  But I thought: well, you know, there are worse things that kids do after school than go to church.  I put it in perspective, and I didn't call the ACLU.  Nor did anyone else.

Last year, the yearbook wouldn't let a student have for a senior quote something from Exodus.  They've had Eminem quotes and quotes from other questionable sources, but not Exodus.  The quote would be attributed as this student's quote, not the school's.  I believe the student's free exercise rights were violated.

Do I think Wally Rogers was correct in what he was doing?  No.  A quiet phone call would have handled it, had I been principal.  But I wouldn't pounce on this story as a big threat.  The bigger threat in this state is the kind of overboard secularism that makes us now take a "December break" rather than a Christmas vacation.

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by: hierc @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:00:11 PM CST

I under stand your perspective, but I'd have to quibble with you on... (3.00 / 1)

...the comment regarding "overboard secularism."

What are the parameters, besides holidays, of your concern here?  I mean, are you implying that Creationism should be taught alongside Evolutionism?

Ok, I'm bringing the quibble out to an extreme.  But secularism as a theory of the universe isn't being taught in our schools.  The holiday name change is an appropriate treatment of diverse holiday traditions at specific times of the year.  

Is it really so unfortunate to say, "Winter Break" in the same way we say, "Spring Break?"  We don't call Spring Break "President's Break" or "Valentine's Break" after all.  Besides, Winter Break is a 10 day hiatus, including New Years Day.  If the days of were associated with a few days around Christmas itself, than sure, call it Christmas Break in the same way we refer to the Thanksgiving holiday by it's own name.

It's not called "Anti-Christmas Break" after all.  People of all backgrounds make their own choices about how they spend the holiday, whether they are celebrating the birth of Jesus, skiing at Killington, or shopping their butts off.  Of all religious holidays, it can be argued that Christmas may be celebrated for the most part in a very secular manner.  So why not call a spade a spade, and let those of Christian/Catholic background celebrate it as a religious holiday in their own way.

If I want to celebrate a holiday in my own way, I really don't want anyone shoving their background in front of me.  

Personally, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday, despite the issues some people have in respect to the genocide of Native Americans.  For me, it's a secular, national holiday; but more important, it's a lot less stressful and offers all of my favorite "F" words:  Food, Family, Fun, and Football.

Nate  

Nate Freeman

Northfield, VT

natefreeman@gmail.com

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by: mydog @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 12:42:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm not into the anti-evolution agenda, Nate. (1.00 / 1)

I was raised in the Congregational Church in Pittsford.  We were a typical New England family that didn't talk much about religion.  We believed in tolerance and a separation of church and state.

I'm not offended by the "December break" thing so much as concerned that our school board felt that they needed to do it, because of an anti-religion atmosphere -- real or perceived.

I agree about Thanksgiving, Nate.  But also cuz I like deer huntin'.  Uh oh.  Here we go!.....

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by: hierc @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 13:35:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

But that's obviously not true (3.00 / 1)

If you read the whole story, Curtis, you will see that the school has not fully responded to the family's concerns, and that the child in question has been harassed at school for raising them. That seems to demonstrate that a quiet phone call would have have resolved the issue.

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by: Jack McCullough @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 13:16:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, I'd like to think that it would have (3.00 / 1)

if I'd been principal, because I would have responded to the family's concerns, and I would have acted on them as long as they were reasonable. And harrassment would not be tolerated.  

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by: hierc @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 13:29:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There are important distinctions here (0.00 / 0)

Last year, the yearbook wouldn't let a student have for a senior quote something from Exodus.  They've had Eminem quotes and quotes from other questionable sources, but not Exodus.  The quote would be attributed as this student's quote, not the school's.  I believe the student's free exercise rights were violated.

You're right: if the school's allowing kids to choose their own quotes, they shouldn't be forcing them to avoid ones which do nothing more than reflect their beliefs.  I do believe that the ACLU would support this student if s/he were inclined to seek that support.

Do I think Wally Rogers was correct in what he was doing?  No.  A quiet phone call would have handled it, had I been principal.  But I wouldn't pounce on this story as a big threat.  The bigger threat in this state is the kind of overboard secularism that makes us now take a "December break" rather than a Christmas vacation.

"Christmas" vacation is not the right of the school to determine.  It has no business attaching a religious theme to the holiday, nor does it have any right to classify its schedule on a religious basis.  That's not secularism.  That's allowing students the choice of their own religious beliefs without the school participating in indoctrination.  

juliewaters.com

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by: JulieWaters @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 13:43:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Christmas (1.00 / 1)

is a federal holiday.  Why shouldn't the schools call it what it is?

I would hardly consider it "indoctrination" to call a federal holiday by its name.

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by: shesright @ Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 20:16:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Christmas *day* is a Federal Holiday (3.00 / 1)

The period that schools take off in Winter is not a Federal holiday.  It's an extended period, extending well outside the boundaries of the Federal holiday.

juliewaters.com

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by: JulieWaters @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 04:47:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

So let's call it... (1.00 / 1)

Vacation in Which There is a Popularly Observed Federal Holiday?  I fail to see the importance of your distintion, Julie.  But whatever.

Okay, I'm not handing out leaflets about Jesus, but I have some Christmas decorations in my room.  Am I indoctrinating?

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by: hierc @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 13:25:06 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Depends (3.00 / 1)

If your decorations are specifically religious in your nature, that would be inappropriate for a public school.

juliewaters.com

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by: JulieWaters @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 14:24:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, Julie! (1.00 / 1)

"If your decorations are specifically religious in your nature, that would be inappropriate for a public school."

You've just admitted that Christmas doesn't have to be considered religious.  Therefore, there's no reason why we can't keep calling it "Christmas Vacation."

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by: hierc @ Tue Jan 29, 2008 at 07:00:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The better leaflet woulda said: (4.00 / 2)

TOP TEN REASONS WHY SANTA IS BETTER THAN GOD

10. Nobody has to die to get Santa to like you.

9. Santa isn't going to send anybody to eternal torment in Hell just for being naughty.

8. Santa doesn't insist that you be absolutely perfect.

7. Santa doesn't send people to promise you better presents if you send them your tithe.

6. Nobody ever fought a war over different interpretations of "'Twas The Night Before Christmas".

5. Santa doesn't meddle in your sex life.

4. Santa actually delivers the goods.

3. Santa really is your father!

2. People don't automatically assume that you are morally corrupt if you don't believe in Santa, and most importantly

1. Santa actually shows up at least once a year to say Hi and take requests.

From the comments section of Dispatches from the Culture Wars.

You can read more of JD Ryan at five before chaos. But why would you want to?

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by: JDRyan @ Mon Jan 28, 2008 at 13:59:35 PM CST